Mustang Owners Club Australia Forum
Technical & General Discussion Area => Tech Torque Pre 1973 => Topic started by: Reborn67 on April 25, 2018, 07:05:33 am
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Hello to all, I am a new member and new to the area, [Newcastle] l have a '67 Hardtop requiring a full rebuild, Being from Melbourne l had quite a few contacts with people in the car business, but here l have none, So l dare say l will be using this forum quite a lot to seek advise. Starting with the engine, l have a target range of 350Hp from a 289 which l do not intend to stroke, l haver a pretty good idea what has to be done but need some thoughts on guys to approach and the ones to avoid, l have already spoken to Pryce engines, who seemed very accommodating but any other contacts or feedback would be great. Andrew..,
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Pretty limited in newy I'm afraid, Kevin Pryce is a very good technician, they have done a number of machining and balancing jobs for me but they are quite busy and a little disorganized so you have to be on the phone a bit to keep things on track and don't expect a returned call, you have to drive them, but that being said they do good work and have the only dyno in the area. I've not delt with g-force for 20years so carnt comment there, Frank Mcnaught is an old school engine builder but more suited to stock builds but very high quality work.
But if you can get down there the guys at BG Engines in North Richmond are in my experience far better than anything on offer in newy, well worth the drive, Damien is your guy there. If your not building your own definitely go there,
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In that neck of the woods the first thing you should do is ask Fitzy on here where NOT to go to get an engine built.
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In that neck of the woods you should do is ask Fitzy on here where NOT to go to get an engine built.
Probably the best advice you'll get today.
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In that neck of the woods you should do is ask Fitzy on here where NOT to go to get an engine built.
ouch...that's brutal...but sooo true!
:lmao:
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A real 350 hp from a 289 is a pretty tall order requiring some fairly big dollars to insure reliability and it will not have any bottom end and will probably rev to around 7000 rpm to make that much power. This means that you should use a 5 speed and at least 3.80 gears.
What are you thinking as far as parts at the moment?
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Thanks to all for your input, will give the guy down sydney way a call and have a chat. As far as the parts are concerned it is pretty much all new except for block and crank, l pulled an auto of it and was planning on putting it back in [after a rebuild of course] A bit early at this stage if diff ratios remain the same..,
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There is another forum “MustangTech” where there is a great engine build reference document written by their late “Boofhead” a highly respected former member of this group. Someone will post the link for you. It has a lot of detail regarding various build options.
That’s not to say there isn’t heaps of knowledge hear and most of the usual suspects have already contributed to your post. Just offering another valuable resource.
Cheers
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Links to the forum are blocked unfortunately.
It's located in their Tech Zone: Engine and Driveline/Parts Selection for a Street Performance 302 Windsor.
The article is very well written and I continue to learn more every time I read it.
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350 Hp it will be grumpy, put a 3.4" crank in it have 400hp and be pretty tame.
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Thanks again for input, putting the crank you suggest would stroke it out to what cap? and the figures l am getting back are pretty large so an additional crank could blow the budget I am still at an early stage of research and the extra dollars for the extra horses could go to something else, Decisions Decisions,
Thanks Guys...,
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Thanks again for input, putting the crank you suggest would stroke it out to what cap? and the figures l am getting back are pretty large so an additional crank could blow the budget I am still at an early stage of research and the extra dollars for the extra horses could go to something else, Decisions Decisions,
Thanks Guys...,
347 if its bored 30 thou, they need a 5.2" rod. It transforms them I've done a number of them, perfectly reliable as long as you are not going to REV it too hard 6k is fine or make 500+ hp. The ford block is the weak link they break the main bearing webs out. The earlier 302/289 are the best blocks not the late 5.0 blocks. Dont believe what you read about rod angles and oil burning, its crap. It really costs not much extra to stroke an engine at time of reco , if you consider the cost or resizing rods, rod bolts, crank regrind on the old stuff etc, cast stroker crank, I beam rods and Hyper eutectic pistons is entry level spec, Scat or Eagle cranks and rods are fine for this. You can do a 3,25" stroke which gives 331 but cost is the same so why bother. Chuck some entry level alloy heads on it bit of a cam and it will surprise you.
If you want to make big power in a 289/302 size engine you need a Dart or Worldcastings aftermarket block these are very strong. They have a 4-1/8" bore which gives you 363 cube with a 3.4" crank, but if you use a 3.41" crank and bore them more you can achieve nearly 380 cube in a 289 size package. A 363 will make a comfortable 500-600hp as a fast street motor if you rev them up around 7000 rpm, these blocks are safe to much higher RPM then stock fords, typically as race motor they will run into hi 7k and above. The 4-1/8 bore also un shrouds the valve at high lift and the extra bore creates a bigger vacuum as well , so they draw a bigger fuel charge. A 347-363 is great choice in an early mustang and everything can be had off the shelf
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Thanks again for input, putting the crank you suggest would stroke it out to what cap? and the figures l am getting back are pretty large so an additional crank could blow the budget I am still at an early stage of research and the extra dollars for the extra horses could go to something else, Decisions Decisions,
Thanks Guys...,
i build a lot of high horse engines and shaunp and a few others here do also and they know their stuff, and if i were building a big horse 289, which i have before, i would install steel main caps which is going to cost you some big bucks.
CRANKSHAFT
the other big weak part in a big horse 289 is the crank unless you want to pay $2000.00 usd for a billet one, because the only 289 cranks that are available are the stock ones, and i have seen several break.
its also best to use a neutral/internal balanced rotating assembly on a big horse 289 and it costs big bucks to do that, especially in oz.
the point is that you can build a 347 for around the same money as a big horse 289 and neither will be "cheap".
BUDGET PARTS
on a stroker, you can save a little money using chinese heads and a cast chinese crank.
on a big horse 289 you can save some money using world products or similar cast iron heads but that will make it even harder to reach your horsepower goal so i don't see any point in doing that.
you can also save a lot of money using a non roller cam. if you do that with a 289 you have to use a solid lifter cam and higher ratio rocker arms to get close to your goal, but the rocker arms aren't a big deal cost wise because the high ratio ones cost around the same as the stock ratio ones.
a decent carb for either build will cost at least $600.00 usd. you need to use one that does not have a choke tower on it but you can buy a cheaper carb and cut the tower off.
GEAR RATIO
If you build a moderate hp 347 (around 350 hp) and use a 5 speed trans, you can get away with around 3.25 gears and it will still accelerate hard and still rev low on the freeway due to the overdrive gear in the trans. The lowest gears you might want to use if you want fairly low rpm on the freeway but want to roast the tires a bit are 3.50 imo. The tire size is also a factor in determining the gear ratio. The z spec t5 has far better gear spacing than a standard t5 and is also a stronger trans.
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heres one option for a "budget" 289 build.
e street 2.02 heads. the valve springs will need to be changed
comp cams valve springs - ideally the valve springs should have a total of around .100" clearance combined between the coils with the valves fully open to reduce the potential for valve spring surge at high rpm.
howards edm solid flat tappet lifters
this cam
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=3338&gid=342
these pistons
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-kb116-030/overview/make/ford
these rods
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-5155f3d/overview/make/ford
these rocker arms
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp1017/overview/make/ford
use .035" thick cometic head gaskets
zero deck the block
mill heads to 54 cc's . this will give you 11.22 compression with zero decked piston height and the kb pistons and .035" thick head gasket
this crank damper
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pfs-90006/overview/
.118 wall or thicker 5/16" howards push rods.
victor junior intake
hedman elite headers
this carb - cut the choke tower off
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-4778c
cloyes true roller timing chain
screw in oil galley plugs with a .5 mm hole drilled in both front ones.
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Add a crank to Barnetts list, swap the rods for some I beams 347 rods and the piston to 347 pistons and you have a 347. for an extra few $100, I beams will be cheaper
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WOW, Thats a lot of information, many thanks,
I have pretty much made my mind up to go with new alloy heads, Dollar for dollar verses reward its a no brainer as well as roller lifters/rockers, The stroking aspect has always spooked me as l have heard the stories that you just dismissed, I was certainly not trying to breach 400hp , being realistic l didn't think it achievable keeping original block and crank, I suppose now l have to weigh up the new crank option, I never wanted a huge hp road scorcher but something that reflected the era of the car and the effort in a full restoration,
Now l have read a couple of times about drilling holes in oil gallery plugs, what is the purpose of that and is it something 'recognised' in the industry?
Thanks again. Andrew..,
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Drilling the front galley plug squirts oil on the distributor cam gear which a weak point of these engine, they chop the gear and the gear on the cam. I would run a Lunati Voodoo 272 hydraulic roller cam in a mild 347, has nice idle with a lope, and it will be quick enough for what you want. I use it and the next one up a 282 a lot I really like them as street cam.
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here they are 272 and 282
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1669&gid=289
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1670&gid=289
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friend me on Facebook if you want, I often post engine builds there, mostly Ford and a few Jag,engine I do for the E type boys etc,
https://www.facebook.com/shaun.t.power
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as mentioned, you will not break a 347 stroker IF it is built properly. i occasionally run the mahle pistons in a 347 because they pull out of the bottom of the cylinder less than most other off the shelf pistons but they are not cheap.
all i know is parts and prices in the us. shaunp knows everything in oz.
you can see by my list that there is a bit more to building an engine properly than just buying parts and throwing it together.
the purpose of a zero deck piston height and thin head gasket is to minimize the quench/squish clearance. this reduces the potential for "pinking" and allows you to run a little higher compression. compression is king but the smaller the engine, the more high compression is needed. also, the bigger the cam the higher the compression should be because the longer the cam duration, the longer it keeps the intake valve open which allows more air to escape as the piston is coming up in the cylinder on the compression stroke. there are 2 types of compression called static or uncorrected, and dynamic or corrected.
you "can" use the e street heads on a mild 347 but you re giving up a lot of power potential. rhs aluminum heads and trick flow heads and pro comp chinese heads are some others to consider for more power but still priced less than ar heads. if you have the money and want really impressive power. i suggest you buy the good trick flow 11r heads or my favorite which are the ar 190 heads. the afr's are pretty much the best overall head on the planet for big horse 347 thru 410 ford street engines but they ain't cheap. the trick flows are a reasonable value
for a moderate stroker, you can use the cast crank which will save some money.
the roller lifters are pricey. i use morels and shaunp previously mentioned that the link bar lifters lunati sells are morels but they are a little cheaper because they dont say morel on them.
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...is it something 'recognised' in the industry?
Thanks again. Andrew..,
yes, and nobody here is going to suggest anything that is abnormal or unproven, but they might suggest things that some builders don't do, because imo, some builders might not be all that good or care all that much. just ready fitzy's cam thread if you want to see what one supposedly "expert" builder did to his engine, so fitzy asked for help on the site and people here got him going again with their suggestions and now he says he has more power everywhere than he did before.
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No one really sells Trick flows here, But VPW and Rocket sell AFR, VPW often have 20% off on their E bays store which lines them up to US prices kind of. Most of my 363 is purchased over time on the 20% VPW sales, Dart block included. Outlaw speed shop in Adelaide is good as well
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if you like to rev and don't have to have a lot of power down low, build a high revving 331. it will still feel like it has very decent power down low if you use a 5 speed and the right rear gears. if you like a lot of torque down low in the rpm range like a big block, build a mild 347, if you want a lot of mid range power and only want to rev to around 5,200 rpm, build a moderate 347.
if you want it to run and feel like a small block, then i suggest you don't build it bigger than 331. the 347's have more of a big block feel. as shaunp mentioned, the cost is not that much different between building a 331 or a 347 and the cost difference is mainly in the heads with bigger heads for the bigger 347 costing more.
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Example AFR 185 heads were 10% of yesterday for Anzac day so 10% of the list price below. though you want the 58cc chambers not these
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AFR-1420-AFR-20-SB-FORD-WINDSOR-Cylinder-Head-185cc-Street-Heads-72cc-chamber-/323105705851?hash=item4b3a99cf7b
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i would also completely disregard hp numbers as they can be very misleading. i find its best for people to simply explain how they want their car to run compared to what they currently have.
i used to have some people come into the shop and tell me they wanted a 450 hp 347, and when i took them for a ride in a real 400 hp 347, most of them said they didn't want that much power, lol.
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Still reading and trying to absorb,Nobody has mentioned edelbrock heads or is that what you mean when you say e street heads, also you mentioned for a mild 347 stroker you say you can get away with the cast crank,thats not the original though,is it? l built quite a few engines in my 20's but that was some time ago and l never did anything other than stock , so there is a lot [understatement] for me to relearn and learn about non factory stuff, starting to realise the depth of this task, going to enjoy this regardless and your input is great!!
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Still reading and trying to absorb,Nobody has mentioned edelbrock heads or is that what you mean when you say e street heads, also you mentioned for a mild 347 stroker you say you can get away with the cast crank,thats not the original though,is it? l built quite a few engines in my 20's but that was some time ago and l never did anything other than stock , so there is a lot [understatement] for me to relearn and learn about non factory stuff, starting to realise the depth of this task, going to enjoy this regardless and your input is great!!
this will be a piece of cake then if you build it yourself.
the cast crank is a stroker crank but it is still much stronger than a stock ford crank and in your case, you ain't gonna break it.
yes, the e street heads are the budget edelbrock ones and they use the same casting as they use for the rpm heads so the quality is very good, however, the flow is not as good as comparable trick flow 11r heads or afr heads.
a 347 with the wimpy e street heads with a mild performance cam will make your stock 289 feel like a 4 cylinder by comparison. the difference will be big but it wont be a fire breathing tire burner.
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HI Andrew
Where about in Newcastle are you, I'm up Tea Gardens way, have recently build a 331 that used the heads and cam shaunp has mentioned dynoed to about 400hp and is sweet to drive , I didn't want a pig just a solid cruiser that does mostly freeway work, could take you for a spin , although I've got the diff center out at the moment
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heres 2 cast steel 347 stroker cranks. these are dirt cheap in the us.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/department/engines-components/section/crankshafts/stroker-crankshaft/yes?SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending&N=4294949512%2B4294924166%2B4294877737%2B4294877715%2B4294880920%2B4294861379
heres the connecting rod page. the eagle sir i beams for 269.00 or something similar are likely all you will need in your case and they are much stronger than stock.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/connecting-rods?sortby=Default&sortorder=Ascending&N=4294880248%2B4294861187
this and the air gap below it are the most common intake for all the ford stroker builds
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/manifolds/ford/performer-rpm-289.shtml
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/manifolds/ford/rpm-air-gap-289.shtml
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My 347 Stroker is still going strong after about 8 years ,gets a hard time every time I drive it ,does not use oil or blow smoke and has around 430 HP ,and is a mild engine . Go 347 not 289 which you will have to rev the ring out of it to get good HP . Ps I only rev my 347 to 6,000 rpm max .
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Back again,
To earthwalker, l am in Belmont and your offer is great, will have to keep in touch,
l would dearly love to build this engine myself, but abit hesitant at so many levels, sourcing parts from o/s l will have to rely heavily on others for pros/cons, needing to know exactly what l need so all the parts are compatable before l source them, etc etc,
And l have come across guys in the past that are a bit reluctant to do the machining on parts when they know they are not doing the whole build, so my enquiries will be endless........,
Going out of town for a week so wont be responding for a while, Thanks again Andrew..,
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Back again,
To earthwalker, l am in Belmont and your offer is great, will have to keep in touch,
l would dearly love to build this engine myself, but abit hesitant at so many levels, sourcing parts from o/s l will have to rely heavily on others for pros/cons, needing to know exactly what l need so all the parts are compatable before l source them, etc etc,
And l have come across guys in the past that are a bit reluctant to do the machining on parts when they know they are not doing the whole build, so my enquiries will be endless........,
Going out of town for a week so wont be responding for a while, Thanks again Andrew..,
all the parts shaunp or i or some others suggest will definitely be compatible, i guarantee it.
we can give you all the exact machining specs for the machinist.
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VPW has a site on ebay that has better prices on the scat stroker equipment than buying from overseas. You can get a 347 stroker crank for under $400aud for eg.
If you decide to go that way
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VPW has a site on ebay that has better prices on the scat stroker equipment than buying from overseas. You can get a 347 stroker crank for under $400aud for eg.
If you decide to go that way
And they regularly have sales with 10-20% off those prices.
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Back again,
To earthwalker, l am in Belmont and your offer is great, will have to keep in touch,
l would dearly love to build this engine myself, but abit hesitant at so many levels, sourcing parts from o/s l will have to rely heavily on others for pros/cons, needing to know exactly what l need so all the parts are compatable before l source them, etc etc,
And l have come across guys in the past that are a bit reluctant to do the machining on parts when they know they are not doing the whole build, so my enquiries will be endless........,
Going out of town for a week so wont be responding for a while, Thanks again Andrew..,
Really no machining to do other than bore and deck the block, fit cam bearings, though I recommend you fit some ARP main stud and line bore the block as a well. . You do have to hand clearance a bit out of the bottom of the cylinders so the rod bolts dont hit due the extra stroke. Wynnum engine in Brisbane loves to just machine stuff. They do it for many engine builders. Ive been using them since the 80's
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Thanks again Guys, l will go away tonight with a lot to digest but very comfortable with the advise you have given me,
You may just have opened my eyes to the stroking option, Not the foe l thought it might be,
Andrew..,
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Thanks again Guys, l will go away tonight with a lot to digest but very comfortable with the advise you have given me,
You may just have opened my eyes to the stroking option, Not the foe l thought it might be,
Andrew..,
It transforms them, so you get tameish 400hp /300kw + engine,with loopy idle at about 850 rpm, so like a late model V8 Holden power, but in a car that weighs 300kg less, they are fun to drive. 347 cube, flat top pistons, 185 AFR 58cc chamber heads, 272 Voodoo roller cam, aim for 10.5:1 compression, Air gap intake, 750 carb. and you can dust of most modern things. 12sec 1/4 mile, turn the tyres when get on it. I did one late last year , very similar but reused his 170 RPM heads , which I ported a bit but still to small. It will dust 2016 Mustang on a rolling start, has 2500k stall.
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You may just have opened my eyes to the stroking option, Not the foe l thought it might be,
Andrew..,
The fact is that in some ways it is even a little easier to stroke an engine than it is to use stock parts, because most of the time, there is no additional machining to do on the crank to get the correct bearing clearances for most street apps. you can basically just start bolting parts together, but of course check the clearances with plasti gauge or something as you go.
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Easy Motors at Wyong, which isn't too far from Belmont, can do all the machining, balancing etc. but they generally don't do final assembly, so they won't be upset if you want to assemble it yourself. I've found them to be quite good over the years that I've dealt with them.
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It transforms them, so you get tameish 400hp /300kw + engine,with loopy idle at about 850 rpm, so like a late model V8 Holden power, but in a car that weighs 300kg less, they are fun to drive. 347 cube, flat top pistons, 185 AFR 58cc chamber heads, 272 Voodoo roller cam, aim for 10.5:1 compression, Air gap intake, 750 carb. and you can dust of most modern things. 12sec 1/4 mile, turn the tyres when get on it. I did one late last year , very similar but reused his 170 RPM heads , which I ported a bit but still to small. It will dust 2016 Mustang on a rolling start, has 2500k stall.
I totally agree with Shaun.
I am so happy with my 347 which I built myself. It was not hard at all as long as the machining work is good and you pay great attention to detail in the assembly of the engine.
My 66 mustang can run mid 11 second 1/4 times in full street trim and is a lot of fun to drive.
It has the usual good parts with , 185 AFR heads ,Edelbrock RPM air gap manifold , 750 carb, decent size hydraulic roller cam, 11:1 compression, 1 5/8” extractors, 3500rpm stall converter and 3.9 Diff gears.
The engine has been going for quite a while now , I drive it regularly and it has never missed a beat. Before the build I used a great deal of information and advice from this forum which helped me heaps.
Cheers.. Wes.
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I would also convert it to a 1 piece rear seal but make certain the lip of the seal does not ride on the small grooves in the rear journal or it may leak.
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In that neck of the woods the first thing you should do is ask Fitzy on here where NOT to go to get an engine built.
:toetapping: :lmao:
I had to travel a bit further south down the freeway to obtain my masterpiece...
Prycey is just around the corner from where i work and i've seen a few very wild machines come out of there and as mentioned they know there stuff.
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I had to travel a bit further south down the freeway to obtain my masterpiece...
masterpiece?
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
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Hi all.
Quick question..
Is it worth bothering to port match an RPM Airgap manifold to the AFR 185 heads?
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Hi all.
Quick question..
Is it worth bothering to port match an RPM Airgap manifold to the AFR 185 heads?
its way more complicated than that and i would not do it. plus, edelbrock themselves say that you can loose performance if you enlarge that intake manifolds ports to match cylinder heads.
if you want more top end power, put a victor intake on it.
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I totally agree with Shaun.
I am so happy with my 347 which I built myself. It was not hard at all as long as the machining work is good and you pay great attention to detail in the assembly of the engine.
My 66 mustang can run mid 11 second 1/4 times in full street trim and is a lot of fun to drive.
It has the usual good parts with , 185 AFR heads ,Edelbrock RPM air gap manifold , 750 carb, decent size hydraulic roller cam, 11:1 compression, 1 5/8” extractors, 3500rpm stall converter and 3.9 Diff gears.
The engine has been going for quite a while now , I drive it regularly and it has never missed a beat. Before the build I used a great deal of information and advice from this forum which helped me heaps.
Cheers.. Wes.
Did you have any hood clearance issues with the air gap manifold?
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I have a 1” open spacer under the carby as well and yes this does put the air cleaner out of the bonnet.
I have a Mach 1 style scoop which covers it ok.
I did not port match my manifold to the 185 AFR heads and mine still goes quite well.
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Did you have any hood clearance issues with the air gap manifold?
Not at all, did have a standard 2 inch air cleaner , now 3 inch with a drop base
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http://www.bgengines.com.au/347%20windsor.html
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Much appreciated.
Cheers
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Back again, l have a question that may seem bleeding obvious, If l decide to stroke this rebuild i can buy a new scat cast stroker crank for under $400 au , if l keep my old crank it will cost me over $300 to grind and linish and another $300+ to balance it?
Am l missing something here or is the maths to obvious, also would a new scat crank be pre balanced to a high degree or does it also need to be balanced? It just seems to Obvious or is it.......,
Andrew..,
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I've heard that some pre-balanced rotating assemblies often need re-balancing.
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I've heard that some pre-balanced rotating assemblies often need re-balancing.
Yup!
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Back again, l have a question that may seem bleeding obvious, If l decide to stroke this rebuild i can buy a new scat cast stroker crank for under $400 au , if l keep my old crank it will cost me over $300 to grind and linish and another $300+ to balance it?
Am l missing something here or is the maths to obvious, also would a new scat crank be pre balanced to a high degree or does it also need to be balanced? It just seems to Obvious or is it.......,
Andrew..,
you should always balance every build. have it done by a high end reputable shop. shaunp knows some. if they can balance it to within 2 grams, run away fast.
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costs about $400 to balance the engine front to back rods, pistons ,crank , balancer , flywheel. You need your rings and bearings as these are included in the weight, and they also add an oil weight as well
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locally look at VPW ebay site and buy when the have 20% off sale. or Outlaw speed shop in SA generally have good Scat prices.
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So, If a guy in Newcastle [reputable too] says he can balance a crank to under one gram l should be dubious???
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Pryce does very good balancing , they did mine to under 1 from memory, they'll give you a print out, they did offer me to watch the process if I wanted
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So, If a guy in Newcastle [reputable too] says he can balance a crank to under one gram l should be dubious???
Yeah but you balance the rotating assembly as a set. Ie the weight of con-rods, big bearings, piston and rings and oil allowance, determine the weight of the bob weight of the crank, you don't balance the crank by its self. they will often be 50+ grams out or worse.
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Another odd question, Have been sourcing pistons and rods [scat] there seems to be a choice of pin sizing 0.912-0.927" I thought this was relative to overbore size but that is not the case, why the choice , and the pistons are predominantly Speed Pro or KB ,any thoughts on these?
Thanks Andrew..,
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Another odd question, Have been sourcing pistons and rods [scat] there seems to be a choice of pin sizing 0.912-0.927" I thought this was relative to overbore size but that is not the case, why the choice , and the pistons are predominantly Speed Pro or KB ,any thoughts on these?
Thanks Andrew..,
I only ever buy 927 pin size, KB are ok if you are looking at budget cast pistons, I normally use a Forged piston, though they will cost you double. Get "Total Seal" brand plasma moly classic race rings. Also consider an Eagle crank and rods they are ok.
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I often buy these pistons from Skip whites ebay store, generally Marhle plasma rings included, which are good rings as well.
https://www.skipwhiteperformance.com/catalog/ford-347-wiseco-forged-pistons-rings-030-over-flat-top-kp490a3-4030-ft_86934/
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costs about $400 to balance the engine
holy crap!
it costs me $220.00 to have them balanced to zero.
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holy crap!
it costs me $220.00 to have them balanced to zero.
Stuff costs more here, but everyone gets paid more as well. Minimum wages etc are higher etc. My balance guy typically balances to zero or very close to ie 0.01-02
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Hey guys, back again with another Question,
Have been researching alloy heads, seems to me the size appropriate for my intent would be 185,s with a 58cc chamber?
AFR appears to make 3 types, one with pedestal mounts [1492] and 2 with stud mounts [1422 & 1388] the 1388 being non emissions
legal, I dont know if the emissions thing is even an issue in Aus" Is the stud mount best suited for roller rockers?
The equivalent size in an edelbrock appears to be the performer at 170 and 60cc or the performer RPM at 170 or 190 at 60cc
does any one have any thoughts on these and is the extra dollars for the AFR"s worth it?
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I dont know if the emissions thing is even an issue in Aus?
No problem on a '67 - emissions regs didn't come in until Jan '72.
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Hey guys, back again with another Question,
Have been researching alloy heads, seems to me the size appropriate for my intent would be 185,s with a 58cc chamber?
AFR appears to make 3 types, one with pedestal mounts [1492] and 2 with stud mounts [1422 & 1388] the 1388 being non emissions
legal, I dont know if the emissions thing is even an issue in Aus" Is the stud mount best suited for roller rockers?
The equivalent size in an edelbrock appears to be the performer at 170 and 60cc or the performer RPM at 170 or 190 at 60cc
does any one have any thoughts on these and is the extra dollars for the AFR"s worth it?
AFR 1388 stud mount, swap the 3/8 studs for 7/16, there is no comparison to the E brand performer heads they are not on the same planet.
Comp cam Gold rockers. sign up to VPW ebay site and wait till they have 20%-10% off sale and you'll save $500, team them up with a nice hydraulic roller cam, ,Airgap intake, 10.5 :1 comp and you wot see which way it went. 750 double pumper carb
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58cc heads , flat top pistons, cam depends how lumpy you want it and how much power, plenty of good off the shelf cams suitable,
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Wow , that was quick, Thanks again for info, I am slowly compiling a shopping list and will post it for all your thoughts and comments soon,
Andrew..,
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Wow , that was quick, Thanks again for info, I am slowly compiling a shopping list and will post it for all your thoughts and comments soon,
Andrew..,
Couple cams
Nice mild street cam that works well
http://lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1669&gid=289
More aggressive cam still nice on the street but very strong mid and upper RPM
http://lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1670&gid=289
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I've got the first cam Shaun linked, really nice cam :thumb:
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Back over here now, I dont want to hijack someone elses subject, {re Fitzy} i suppose l am just trying to be thorough, l am going to build this myself
{with help of course] and also going to stroke it, l am just keen to read about other peoples experiences, good or bad to make sure l have
l have as much info as possible and have the best outcome, considering the dollars involved, thats all...,
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Back over here now, I dont want to hijack someone elses subject, {re Fitzy} i suppose l am just trying to be thorough, l am going to build this myself
{with help of course] and also going to stroke it, l am just keen to read about other peoples experiences, good or bad to make sure l have
l have as much info as possible and have the best outcome, considering the dollars involved, thats all...,
So early block is stronger than a 5.0 roller block both are fine if you are keeping to low 400-hp and revs around/just over 6k
I always line bore them and fit ARP main bearing studs
They need a good balance job and a good tune, particularly if you are going to rev them, I believe bad tune IE pinging/pre-ignition is one of the causes to block failure if they are on the edge rpm/power wise.
-Mid 10.5 compression is good, set up deck heights etc to achieve this AFR heads have a good chamber and will take compression ok.
-Hydraulic roller cam is good, 270 to 280 deg overal with close to 600 thou lift, I posted some Voodoo cams above, if using a non roller block buy Howard link bar lifers they are good value, distributor needs gear to match cam material
-Air gap intake is good
-750 double pumper carb
-Roll-master red timing set is good
-Cast eagle/scat rotating assembly +I beamrods is fine for this type of power
-Moly rings like Total Seal brand
-Clevite 77 bearing, (eagle crank uses Chev big ends)
- minimum f of 1-5/8" primary, long tube 4 in to 1 3" collector
-AFR 185s are good and have roller cam springs
-Comp cam gold or Scorpion rockers are fine
PM if you want my ph number if you want to discuss what to do.
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i suppose l am just trying to be thorough, l am going to build this myself
{with help of course] and also going to stroke it, l am just keen to read about other peoples experiences, good or bad to make sure l have as much info as possible and have the best outcome, considering the dollars involved, thats all...,
Again, it's really just not that simple because some people have bad experiences because of mistakes on their part and they blame it on the parts instead of themselves, so what you are asking really isn't going to help much, I guarantee it.
All I can suggest is that you simply use the parts that shaunp or I or another experienced engine builder on here suggests. It really is the simplest and best way.
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Back over here now, I dont want to hijack someone elses subject, {re Fitzy} i suppose l am just trying to be thorough, l am going to build this myself
{with help of course] and also going to stroke it, l am just keen to read about other peoples experiences, good or bad to make sure l have
l have as much info as possible and have the best outcome, considering the dollars involved, thats all...,
Start here:
https://www.mustangtech.com.au/Content/pa=showpage/pid=27.html (https://www.mustangtech.com.au/Content/pa=showpage/pid=27.html)
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Here's some reading for you but I am not endorsing any of these.
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1314481-your-347-combo-dyno-results.html
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=567210
http://www.hardcore50racing.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-50683.html
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mmfp-0103-ford-347-stroker-engine-build/
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mmfp-0712-ford-small-block-stroker-engine-build/
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1110phr-testing-three-cams-on-a-347-ford/
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-1003-ford-347-engine-build/
http://347strokerkit.com/how-to-build-a-347-stroker.html
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Start here:
https://www.mustangtech.com.au/Content/pa=showpage/pid=27.html (https://www.mustangtech.com.au/Content/pa=showpage/pid=27.html)
The best advice you will ever get.
(I guess someone has removed the restriction on links to the other forum, which is good to see)
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I can say without doubt that l will be sourcing/using the parts that you guys have suggested, your knowledge and experience is very much appreciated and will still be pestering for advise as l go..,Thanks again :bow: :bow:
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Yes I read that article {by Boof} the other night, amazing stuff, l had to lie down afterwards with a brain ache, will no doubt read it again more and more...,
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I can say without doubt that l will be sourcing/using the parts that you guys have suggested, your knowledge and experience is very much appreciated and will still be pestering for advise as l go..,Thanks again :bow: :bow:
Then why don't you just tell us exactly what your goal is and we can post exact parts. There are many different rods and cranks and pistons and lifters and timing chains and heads etc that are good quality and reliable that will get the job done but some are better than they might need to be for a particular app, so buying the best ones is sometimes overkill and a waste of money.
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So as I said when i started, I have a 67 289, to be completely rebuilt, Would like 350 hp , if l can get a bit more by stroking it and not having to rev its ring off, Bonus.
So new machining to block,
Cast Scat stroker crank and scat I beam rods,
Pistons???
Heads AFR 1388 [185 58cc]
Voodoo 272 cam
The rest is yet to be decided...,
Before the deck can be machined i assume they want the crank and pistons to know tolerances?
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So as I said when i started, I have a 67 289, to be completely rebuilt, Would like 350 hp , if l can get a bit more by stroking it and not having to rev its ring off, Bonus.
So new machining to block,
Cast Scat stroker crank and scat I beam rods,
Pistons???
Heads AFR 1388 [185 58cc]
Voodoo 272 cam
The rest is yet to be decided...,
Before the deck can be machined i assume they want the crank and pistons to know tolerances?
in your case, i would build a 347.
yes on the parts you mentioned. eagle cranks and rods are cheaper in the us than scat, but i have no idea on prices in oz but shaunp can tell you all of that.
same thing with the pistons. i typically use 4032 material and prefer mahles or srp's.
i use the longest rods i can to reduce side loading on the pistons so the engines last as long as they can. i sometimes have custom pistons made to be able to use some rods.
i would use the standard morel or lunati or howards roller lifters. the lunati and howards standard roller lifters are morels but sometimes cost less because it does not say morel on them.
you can get a rollmaster timing chain with a thrust bearing. nice upgrade but a bit of overkill in your case imo.
i would use an eddy rpm or air gap intake.
i typically prefer cams with 110 lsa's. they hit a little harder than a wider lsa cam if all the other cam specs remain the same.
yes they need the crank, rods and pistons in their hands first.
cometic gaskets are one of the best but they are a bit expensive but that's what i would use. i would also use the .035" thick ones in your case.
you will need a good high perf damper . i prefer ati but have used pro comp sfi rated ones. powerbond also makes one and they are based in oz. innovators west also makes a high quality one.
i also drill a .5 mm hole in both front oil galley plugs.
high perf oil pump drive.
for your app, the arp main studs are overkill but they are an xlnt upgrade.
baffled oil pan if you race it.
standard scorpion rockers will hit some standard height valve covers and some shelby style valve covers. if you use this type of valve cover i would use the scorpion endurance series rocker but they cost more.
i use thick wall push rods like howards .118" wall chromoly.
If you use a standard block (not a 5.0) i would have it machined to use a 1 piece rear main seal. you will be much happier.
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So as I said when i started, I have a 67 289, to be completely rebuilt, Would like 350 hp , if l can get a bit more by stroking it and not having to rev its ring off, Bonus.
So new machining to block,
Cast Scat stroker crank and scat I beam rods,
Pistons???
Heads AFR 1388 [185 58cc]
Voodoo 272 cam
The rest is yet to be decided...,
Before the deck can be machined i assume they want the crank and pistons to know tolerances?
You need to know the current bores size of the block you have so you know what to buy. Piston clearance / deck height depends on the pistons you buy. Forged pistons will want about 4 thou of side clearance for example
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yes, the bore size. the less it is bored the better.
if it is standard now, i would only go to .020" over. if it is .030" now, the block is junk because it will need to go to at least .040" in which case it will be impossible to cool properly unless you install a massive rad which is a problem unless you heavily modify your core support or move the engine rearward slightly etc.
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You say that 40 thou over will give you cooling issues, does that mean that 20-30 thou over would also have cooling issues to some degree , and is there measures to help this during rebuild stage, l know its only early in my case but l like the serpentine belt setup with thermo fans and what ever rad is needed, hopefully without having to "chop" to get it in, thoughts on whether this belt set up is more look than function or perhaps expensive overkill, does it actually fit if you need a larger radiator, in a 67 hardtop,
Have the engine out now and plan to start pulling it apart this weekend, all to be revealed,
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You say that 40 thou over will give you cooling issues, does that mean that 20-30 thou over would also have cooling issues to some degree , and is there measures to help this during rebuild stage, l know its only early in my case but l like the serpentine belt setup with thermo fans and what ever rad is needed, hopefully without having to "chop" to get it in, thoughts on whether this belt set up is more look than function or perhaps expensive overkill, does it actually fit if you need a larger radiator, in a 67 hardtop,
Have the engine out now and plan to start pulling it apart this weekend, all to be revealed,
Probably worth starting a new thread so we can all follow along.
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Probably didnt want to get to carried away at this stage, just curious about overbore limitations, once l get the heads off l hopefully confirm my belief that the engine is original, and the block itself is useable, go from there. l know it has been sitting in someones back shed for the best part of 20 years and never driven on Aus soil, ex californian, the rest is anyones guess....,
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You say that 40 thou over will give you cooling issues, does that mean that 20-30 thou over would also have cooling issues to some degree , and is there measures to help this during rebuild stage, l know its only early in my case but l like the serpentine belt setup with thermo fans and what ever rad is needed, hopefully without having to "chop" to get it in, thoughts on whether this belt set up is more look than function or perhaps expensive overkill, does it actually fit if you need a larger radiator, in a 67 hardtop,
Have the engine out now and plan to start pulling it apart this weekend, all to be revealed,
if you have a 67 then you can run a big rad without having to chop anything. a good 24" with good fans will work fine unless it is .040" over.
contrary to what some self appointed "experts" believe, the more you bore it, the greater the demand on the cooling system but there is a big difference between trying to cool a .040" 289 than there is a .030" 289 because it crosses a certain threshold.
it is a good idea to get any block sonic checked before building it to make sure the walls are thick enough because the block can also have core shift and/or be rusted thin from inside the water jackets.
also, the less you bore it, the more bores you have left to go if you need to rebuild your recently rebuilt engine like fitzy has to now. :bolt:
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if you are on a budget you don't have to zero deck it and probably won't need to line bore it either.
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The issue with thin wall is you get mirco boiling on outside of the bore. 67 car go straight to a factory 24" rad with opposite inlet/outlet, use a set of twin EL falcon fans for example.
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...i also use fan controllers.
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if you have a 67 then you can run a big rad without having to chop anything. a good 24" with good fans will work fine unless it is .040" over.
contrary to what some self appointed "experts" believe, the more you bore it, the greater the demand on the cooling system but there is a big difference between trying to cool a .040" 289 than there is a .030" 289 because it crosses a certain threshold.
Can you explain this comment further? how is there more demand on the cooling system?
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Can you explain this comment further? how is there more demand on the cooling system?
See Shaun's comment 3 posts up.
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See Shaun's comment 3 posts up.
Thanks Brian, what's the theory behind this? higher temperature at the cylinder wall because it is thinner?
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Thanks Brian, what's the theory behind this? higher temperature at the cylinder wall because it is thinner?
Yep transmits the heat into the water jacket quicker. Or in other words less wall thickness to absorb the heat and stop it’d transfer to the water.
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Having said that I've had 40 thou blocks which were fine, but I always have good cooling, 24" rad with plenty of fan. A 347 at 30 with a 24" rad factory shroud and 5 blade fan will run below 70 c if you dont have thermostat in Brisbane no issue, Never get hot, put an 82 in it and thats where it will run.
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Yep transmits the heat into the water jacket quicker. Or in other words less wall thickness to absorb the heat and stop it’d transfer to the water.
This is also a reason for a high volume pump, not just to move more water but to build more block pressure. The 5.0 blocks are thinner everywhere not just the bore. The heat made by the engine is the same overall, combustion is no different, just more prone to gassing on the outer cylinder walls
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Having said that I've had 40 thou blocks which were fine, but I always have good cooling, 24" rad with plenty of fan.
yup, same here. a big enough rad and fan will cool most anything
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micro boiling can be greatly reduced by using straight antifreeze but that creates other issues.
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micro boiling can be greatly reduced by using straight antifreeze but that creates other issues.
Yeah makes them run hot like that Evans waterless stuff does.
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thanks for the responses all
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Back with another question !! sourcing pistons and rings, are piston rings made to a standard size, as in cross sectional size, so if l wanted 20 thou over size rings would they fit all makes of 20 thou over pistons, or do rings have to be piston brand specific, curios as some suppliers have 'rings included' but are they as good as the ones you guys use or suggest, ie total seal etc.....,
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Back with another question !! sourcing pistons and rings, are piston rings made to a standard size, as in cross sectional size, so if l wanted 20 thou over size rings would they fit all makes of 20 thou over pistons, or do rings have to be piston brand specific, curios as some suppliers have 'rings included' but are they as good as the ones you guys use or suggest, ie total seal etc.....,
Some pistons have metric rings some have imperial as in the depth of the ring, so say 1/16 or 1.5mm etc so you must match the ring to the piston. sample below Total seal is my favorite brand, or Marhle
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/tsr-cr369030/overview/
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/tsr-cr1001-35/overview/
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I often use these DSS pistons they are 4032 alloy rather that 2618 so you can run them tighter in a mild engine. they use 5/64-3/16 rings
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/dms-8741-4030/overview/make/ford
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5/64 rings
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/tsr-cr9090-30/overview/
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Thanks again for response and info,
in regard to your facebook invite , please don't think me rude but l am not on it
am happy just to do the forum thing at the moment, am learning more than l expected.....,
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With forged pistons to be clear,they are typically made from 2 kinds alloy the 2618 alloy is not required unless you really want to flog shit out of it or use power adders, this alloy is more malleable and less likely to break. This alloy is less stable to temperature though, and needs greater cylinder to skirt clearance as it expands more. They rattle a bit when the engine is cold. Having said that I run this alloy in my own engines.
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...and either material will be fine for your app. the 2618's may be cheaper than 4032 in oz. i just like to run them as tight as possible so i use the 4032's. also, the mahles, which are 4032 material for stroker engines come out of the bottom of the bore a little less than some others on a 347 plus their skirt design lends itself to possibly being just a little bit more stable in the bore at the bottom of the stroke.
there is also piston design to consider which is a whole other discussion.
there are numersous styles of rings as well like reverse twist and dykes, and L and gapless and chrome etc. i typically use thin plasma moly rings. the plasma ones typically are better than the moly filled ones at least in my experience, and i use thinner rings than standard size. most high perf pistons are made for thinner rings anyway so there is rarely a choice. the thinner rings have less drag on the cylinder so an engine will have just a tiny bit more hp with them and will rev just a tiny bit faster and will put just a tiny bit less load on the cooling system because of the lower friction. there are also low tension rings which is what the factories used in some engines like the 5.0's etc. these wear the bore less so an engine will last longer but i don't know of snyone using them for street apps..
you can analyze every single thing part on an engine to death trying to get the "perfect" combo, and in the end it won't really make much, if any real difference at all in the big scheme of things, plus it can take a year to explain it all and most people including myself don't know every little thing like the tensile or shear strength or modulus of elasticity or the grain structure of every part etc so we can only give you limited info.
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Thanks again for your input, l suppose its like everything, you dont know how involved it is until you get into it, then its a sharp learning curve, l dont want to know every minute detail, that comes with years of experience. just the finer points of the basics so when there is a choice of parts or techniques l know which way to go...., also. 'question time again' looking at cam specs there seems to be a variant in timing sequences, 137... to 154.... is that relevant in my case?
Back to pistons again, piston pins, press fit or floating?
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Thanks again for your input, l suppose its like everything, you dont know how involved it is until you get into it, then its a sharp learning curve,
bingo!
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just the finer points of the basics so when there is a choice of parts or techniques l know which way to go...., also. 'question time again' looking at cam specs there seems to be a variant in timing sequences, 137... to 154.... is that relevant in my case?
Back to pistons again, piston pins, press fit or floating?
don't even begin to try and understand cam specs. it is rocket science. i would just use what the majority of the people suggest after you decide exactly what parts you want and how you want it to run etc.
all performance pistons and pins are floating which is what yours will be with a stroker.
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With respect to cams and fireing order buy a cam with 351 order, this puts less load on the front bearing so 1-3, the Voodoo cam is 351 so all good
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And all 5.0 roller cams have the 351 firing order as well.
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Thanks again, well.., took the heads off and the sump and pulled a piston out, and happy, and somewhat relieved to see that the big end bearings are stamped FoMoCo, 11 66 which kinda sits right with the cars build date of Jan 67, the piston measured 3.995" and bore seems to be 4.000 or very close to it, as best l can measure with a vernier.., as at this stage all l have to measure with, so it would seem the engine is original, now all l hope is it is sound,fingers crossed..,
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Thanks again, well.., took the heads off and the sump and pulled a piston out, and happy, and somewhat relieved to see that the big end bearings are stamped FoMoCo, 11 66 which kinda sits right with the cars build date of Jan 67, the piston measured 3.995" and bore seems to be 4.000 or very close to it, as best l can measure with a vernier.., as at this stage all l have to measure with, so it would seem the engine is original, now all l hope is it is sound,fingers crossed..,
All good then you can go to 030. all you need to save is the block
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Yet another question, you guys must be getting sick of this, reading another thread about 289/347 rebuild [ june '17] and saw a picture of a main bearing girdle, l assume this is for top end performance builds, but does this have any relevance to the standard ford block stroking build?
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Yet another question, you guys must be getting sick of this, reading another thread about 289/347 rebuild [ june '17] and saw a picture of a main bearing girdle, l assume this is for top end performance builds, but does this have any relevance to the standard ford block stroking build?
Lots of people believe they do nothing , lots of people swear by them. I'm of the view that they do no harm and have to make some difference, how much I'm not sure, the build you are planning doesn't need one. But like changing from factory main bolts to ARP bolts/studs you should line bore them once you use any of this stuff, just as I always Torque bore & hone. ARP bolts use higher torque which may distort the tunnel etc. I'm anal about this type of thing, having had some big Holden red motor failures in the 80's, with things coming out the side, but we never had the stuff you can buy today, it was mostly over stressed stock parts. I had stroker crank in my XU1 which was 1/2 Falcon , 1/2 holden, cut and shut machined , pressed together and welded, was made by Ron Harrop
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Yet another question, you guys must be getting sick of this...
not in the least, i was just trying to explain why in some instances, the info you are asking for either isn't all the useful or isn't really easy to explain or understand etc. fee free to ask away.
... reading another thread about 289/347 rebuild [ june '17] and saw a picture of a main bearing girdle, l assume this is for top end performance builds, but does this have any relevance to the standard ford block stroking build?
Here's more info to add to shaunp's comments. Dowel pins in the main caps probably do more for most high perf builds than arp studs and main girdles combined. The main caps can, and sometimes do, move a tiny bit even though those suckers seem to have a lot of force from the bolts holding them down. In the US this condition is often referred to main cap "walk".
One of the few things that can happen is that the sides of the caps can pull inward under high loads which occur when one is beating the crap out of their engine. This is caused by the downward force of the crank on the center of the cap. The dowels prevent the caps from walking 100%. They do not prevent the bottom of the cap from moving forward or rearward though, however, this seems to be less of a problem if they do then the caps walking and deforming inward somewhat.
Since the caps are cast iron, they can crack, but that is extremely rare on a street engine in my experience, but to reduce the risk of that occurring, steel caps can be installed.
Ford was concerned about the caps cracking on the 271 hi po engines so they simply made the cap wider. The blocks Ford had made in mexico all came with the wider caps, so they are highly sought after by some people but the blocks are extremely rare.
The best cap scenario would be ARP bolts, steel caps, dowel pins, and a stud girdle. In the US this would only cost around $1400.00 to do which would probably be around $8,000.00 in oz.
:thud:
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$1400 US, wouldn't bother to spend that on much extra on 289/302 block, may as well just get a Dart block
line bore is about $400, studs about $100.
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$1400 US, wouldn't bother to spend that on much extra on 289/302 block, may as well just get a Dart block.
yeah, not many people do that type of stuff here anymore. i was just giving him a bit more info since he seems to want to learn a bit.
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$1400 US, wouldn't bother to spend that on much extra on 289/302 block, may as well just get a Dart block
line bore is about $400, studs about $100.
What machine work do the dart blocks need?
Is it just a final hone to match the pistons?
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hone to size, fit cam bearings, deck. maybe hone the tunnel.
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hone to size, fit cam bearings, deck. maybe hone the tunnel.
If you buy one of their short blocks you might well be doing all this anyway :-)
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What machine work do the dart blocks need?
Is it just a final hone to match the pistons?
One needs to check the distributor gear height (up and down freeplay). fitzys was binding and I think this is what killed his cam, or it at least probably contributed to its premature demise.
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One needs to check the distributor gear height (up and down freeplay). fitzys was binding and I think this is what killed his cam, or it at least probably contributed to its premature demise.
I think perhaps the legend builder may have fitted the brass gear wrong not that the block was wrong perhaps.
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I think perhaps the legend builder may have fitted the brass gear wrong not that the block was wrong perhaps.
one of the problems was that the gear was binding, meaning that it was being forced down onto the pad because there was not enough upwards movement in the distributor shaft which put more load on the gears when the cam turned, so i had him suspend the gear above the now gouged up pad by around .010" so it will never touch the pad, at least until the bearing in his chinese distributor wears
:grin:.
I also had him lower the adjustable collar on the distributor a little so is had around .010" of upward movement.
my guess is that the pad on the block was not plunged quite deep enough but he couldn't measure the depth. of course it might be deep enough and his moron builder just didn't check the distributor gear/shaft play. the clown also ground a hole in the distributor so it would clear the intake if you remember that work of art. :lmao:
i had him get a stock size pertronix which just clears now and had him put the crane melonized gear on it and i bet that gear looks like new still...i hope, lol.
now, this being said, the dist gear pad on his block is still gouged up, so the question is, should he have it machined smooth and run a hardened shim under the gear to compensate for the amount they take off or leave it as it is?
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I think that is the correct answer of machine it smooth and the drop the gear, or use a shim either way would work.
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uh oh fitzy...looks like you have one more thing to add to your list of things to fix. :lmao:
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.
i sure hope you know a superb machinist. :bolt:
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I think that is the correct answer of machine it smooth and the drop the gear, or use a shim either way would work.
the pin in the gear won't fail because i had him use a hardened one and he might have even put 2 pins in and chevys run their gear suspended with no prob but their distributors are designed to have side thrust on the bearing surfaces. i just don't trust doing it this way on the pertronix but maybe pertronix uses the same system for the chevy distributors in which case it "should" be ok if he leaves it but i'm not certain.
one thing is for certain which is that he can't lower the gear any more but i don't think he woud have to based on the pattern he was getting when i had him check it.
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hey fitzy, clean the distributor gear and cam gear then post a very close up photo of both so we can check the war pattern.
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Back with another quick question.., got a scat cast crank on order, and shortly a set of scat I beam rods,(347 stroker) there is 2 sets of Clevite Rod Bearings listed, std and H race series narrow? There is a big difference in cost but considering the work they do to me the price is not as important as getting the best/correct ones..., any thoughts out there?
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Back with another quick question.., got a scat cast crank on order, and shortly a set of scat I beam rods,(347 stroker) there is 2 sets of Clevite Rod Bearings listed, std and H race series narrow? There is a big difference in cost but considering the work they do to me the price is not as important as getting the best/correct ones..., any thoughts out there?
Most aftermarket cranks need H bearings. Typically the cranks have bigger radius from the web to the pin for add strength at higher rpm, this requires a chamfer on the edge of the bearing or a narrow bearing so they dont hit the fillet. From memory the 9000 cast cranks can just use P bearing, The H bearing are stronger
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Thanks for quick reply and clarifying,
It is so reassuring to talk to someone that knows their stuff....., :bow:
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Thanks for quick reply and clarifying,
It is so reassuring to talk to someone that knows their stuff....., :bow:
Also the big ends a often sold as pairs not a full set of 8 rods worth
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Okay Guys , thoughts on intakes, so the story so far,
289 Block to be machined Minimally, .020" over and decked etc etc
New scat cast stroker crank 3.400
New Scat I beam rods
Pistons, still sourcing??
Heads AFR 185-58cc
New Voodoo 272 cam
Hyd roller lifts/rockers, still sourcing??
From the advise and what l have read, a 750 carb seems to be the go, and reading "Boofs signature combos" Quickfuel seems to be his carb of choice, sitting on an edelbrock performance airgap manifold with a 1" spacer plate,
Now, There is 750's and 750's, many to choose from, mech or vac secondaries,this is the limit of my knowledge, does the coupling with an auto dictate the secondaries, does an Ice ignition have any influence? Running the white flag up again,
Any thoughts? Thanks....,
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Also forgot to add, The eddy manifold (ED7521) states "no provision for exhaust crossover" does this even matter?
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Also forgot to add, The eddy manifold (ED7521) states "no provision for exhaust crossover" does this even matter?
a crossover is a port that runs from one side of the exhaust to the other under the carburetor to heat the fuel so the engine runs better if you live at....the north pole. :lmao:
i would not use a crossover . if you have one you can block it off with gaskets that come with a little plate to block it off with.
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Also forgot to add, The eddy manifold (ED7521) states "no provision for exhaust crossover" does this even matter?
Most after market heads wont have the port either.
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Okay Guys , thoughts on intakes, so the story so far,
289 Block to be machined Minimally, .020" over and decked etc etc
New scat cast stroker crank 3.400
New Scat I beam rods
Pistons, still sourcing??
Heads AFR 185-58cc
New Voodoo 272 cam
Hyd roller lifts/rockers, still sourcing??
From the advise and what l have read, a 750 carb seems to be the go, and reading "Boofs signature combos" Quickfuel seems to be his carb of choice, sitting on an edelbrock performance airgap manifold with a 1" spacer plate,
Now, There is 750's and 750's, many to choose from, mech or vac secondaries,this is the limit of my knowledge, does the coupling with an auto dictate the secondaries, does an Ice ignition have any influence? Running the white flag up again,
Any thoughts? Thanks....,
Double pumper mech secondary with your cam choice will be fine with an auto and a small stall say 2500. I'm not keen on the Ice ignition box with its pre programmed ignition curves. Look at Quick fuel, AED or HOLLY HP carbs. I really like AED's they just seem to work
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Jumping onto the Holley site and using their "find a carby guide" a 347 @ 6200rpm is better suited (in their eyes) to a 650 carb,
am l going overboard thinking of a 750 , knowing that bigger is not always better, and the Ice ignition was a recommendation by an
engine builder, and by no means my final decision, just another thought being thrown out there,
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what gears are you running?
whats wrong with morel or lunati morel lifters?
i hope your pistons don't have more than around a 10 cc dish.
I would use .035" thick cometic head gaskets with 4.020 or 4.030 bore.
imo, ice is overkill and overpriced for average street builds. you will not notice any difference using an ignition that costs 40% less, i guarantee it.
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I would buy the howards lifters well priced
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I would buy the howards lifters well priced
howards has a couple and one of them are the morels
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Hey, Re; gears, haven't thought that far ahead just yet, the auto will be rebuilt, and the current diff is an 8" 2.79, Which will be rebuilt also if it is up to the task, or ratios changed if need be,
In regard to the pistons, will source them in ernest once l get the block to the machinist, and he can assess exactly what bore he will take it out to,
l dont know if l am not following the right procedures, but will also chase up lifters once i start putting it back together,
With the ignition, l'm open to any thoughts, as this is a subject that l know bugger all about,
As always thanks for reply....,
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Hey, Re; gears, haven't thought that far ahead just yet, the auto will be rebuilt, and the current diff is an 8" 2.79, Which will be rebuilt also if it is up to the task, or ratios changed if need be,
In regard to the pistons, will source them in ernest once l get the block to the machinist, and he can assess exactly what bore he will take it out to,
l dont know if l am not following the right procedures, but will also chase up lifters once i start putting it back together,
With the ignition, l'm open to any thoughts, as this is a subject that l know bugger all about,
As always thanks for reply....,
you need to go to a 3.25 rear in real terms to get it on the cam. 8" is fine , put a truetrac in it though
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i would go a little lower like 3.43 with that cam if you want really fast acceleration and won't be driving 110 kph for long periods of time. if you have an overdrive trans i would use 3.50's.
i would use 4032 material pistons . mahle's are an xlnt choice for a 347.
AUTO TRANS
You need to find a very good high perf trans builder otherwise if you built it with stock type parts it will soon turn into scrap metal if you beat on it. red alto plates are the most common high perf ones to use and you need a good shift kit etc.
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Thats Another thread in its self l guess, Finding a very good auto trans guy in Newcastle, may have to venture down to Sydney, Have to ask Prycey if he knows anyone?
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i would go a little lower like 3.43 with that cam if you want really fast acceleration and won't be driving 110 kph for long periods of time. if you have an overdrive trans i would use 3.50's.
i would use 4032 material pistons . mahle's are an xlnt choice for a 347.
AUTO TRANS
You need to find a very good high perf trans builder otherwise if you built it with stock type parts it will soon turn into scrap metal if you beat on it. red alto plates are the most common high perf ones to use and you need a good shift kit etc.
Well I like 3.55 but I figure seeing as he is in Newcastle he is going to do some highway work
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Well I like 3.55 but I figure seeing as he is in Newcastle he is going to do some highway work
yeah i would use 3.55 also but only with an overdrive tranny in the us cuz we get to 75 mph on the freeway where i live and you have to take it to go anywhere.
the 3.25 with a 2000 + rpm stall will still certainly get him going decently, especially compared to the stock engine with 2.80 he is replacing it with.
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Ive got 3.00 .3.25 and 3.55, If I want to go long distance Ill just swap the center only takes an hour or so, I wont swap out my Toploader, thats what old fords should have as gear box. I may stick a Gearvendors in it later though.
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Ive got 3.00 .3.25 and 3.55, If I want to go long distance Ill just swap the center only takes an hour or so, I wont swap out my Toploader, thats what old fords should have as gear box. I may stick a Gearvendors in it later though.
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:Shaunp might be the only guy in the world that changes diff gearing to suit driving conditions. Is their anyone in the world that loves working on cars more the STP?
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:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:Shaunp might be the only guy in the world that changes diff gearing to suit driving conditions. Is their anyone in the world that loves working on cars more the STP?
Mate back in 80's when I had Torana's I would change them most week ends, I use break Banjo Holden diffs all the time In my 308 LH. The Bloke lived over the back a a quick HG kingswood, He use break a banjo at least once a month at Fisherman's island which was to local street race drag strip back then at Port of Brisbane, even had start finish lines painted on the road. I use to work out west a bit in the Bunya moutains at the ABC TV transmitter station ABDQ3 so would often have to drive to Dalby etc, so I'd drop a 2.78 in the Torana for the trip so it would cruise at 140+ KM happily. Some weeks I'd run to Dalby 2,3 times. Wish I still had the Torana, sold it and got an XJS Jag.
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:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:Shaunp might be the only guy in the world that changes diff gearing to suit driving conditions. Is their anyone in the world that loves working on cars more the STP?
Mate, l can only dream of that day,
Reminds me of cars back in the 80's , My mate had an orig' SLR 5000 and l had a 250 in my cortina, l would bait him at the lights all the time and he snapped diffs like there was no tomorrow, source of much amusement for years, but to his credit he still has the car...,
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Ive got 3.00 .3.25 and 3.55, If I want to go long distance Ill just swap the center only takes an hour or so...
I am way too lazy to do that. :lmao:
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I am way too lazy to do that. :lmao:
Someone needs to design a quick change diff for these cars.
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Someone needs to design a quick change diff for these cars.
Or maybe just put in a 5 speed box? (toploader quote from shaunp notwithstanding...)
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Or maybe just put in a 5 speed box? (toploader quote from shaunp notwithstanding...)
I wont be changing it in the foreseeable future. But I defiantly haven't discounted a gear vendors OD. If I went to a different box Id have to go to T56, TKO's dont like high RPM shifting, my 363 will run to 7k, so its not happening, plus my TL is completely fresh with a new Hurst Comp+ shifter.
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I wont be changing it in the foreseeable future. But I defiantly haven't discounted a gear vendors OD. If I went to a different box Id have to go to T56, TKO's dont like high RPM shifting, my 363 will run to 7k, so its not happening, plus my TL is completely fresh with a new Hurst Comp+ shifter.
I had a 363 pulling 7800rpm and a TKO 600. I've got a 355 pulling 8000rpm with a TKO 600. As long as you have a good clutch, you can buy aftermarket shift kits with teflon tabs etc.
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I had a 363 pulling 7800rpm and a TKO 600. I've got a 355 pulling 8000rpm with a TKO 600. As long as you have a good clutch, you can buy aftermarket shift kits with teflon tabs etc.
so you can keep the gas pedal floored and speed shift it without letting up on the gas pedal?
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so you can keep the gas pedal floored and speed shift it without letting up on the gas pedal?
Can't say I have used that technique.
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I had a 363 pulling 7800rpm and a TKO 600. I've got a 355 pulling 8000rpm with a TKO 600. As long as you have a good clutch, you can buy aftermarket shift kits with teflon tabs etc.
I had one in a E type jag with a supercharged / injected 383 chev and it wasn't that good at 7000 revs, pulled it part a couple of times. It was a bit better with a cooler on it. This was in the early 2000's be may they are different now. The car was used in hill climb etc, and it was a bit problematic
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They may have changed, I don't know.
The current one I use is in a race car (circuit car) and it endures some hard driving. I wouldn't run with a stocker straight out of the box as I know you would at least destroy the brass synchros but if you like the idea of a tough 5 speed, you can make them live. Geoff Dellow built mine.
Sorry for dragging you guys off topic, I had the afternoon off and was bored.
Carry on.
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They may have changed, I don't know.
The current one I use is in a race car (circuit car) and it endures some hard driving. I wouldn't run with a stocker straight out of the box as I know you would at least destroy the brass synchros but if you like the idea of a tough 5 speed, you can make them live. Geoff Dellow built mine.
Sorry for dragging you guys off topic, I had the afternoon off and was bored.
Carry on.
The one we had was from Mal Wood, it never broke was just a bastard to shift sometimes. My mate now has the car but with milder 350 still with the blower etc basically a road car now and its ok at that.
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so you can keep the gas pedal floored and speed shift it without letting up on the gas pedal?
Yes....ask Mr Hollinger.
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Can't say I have used that technique.
well i actually know a fair amount about these trannies and and there is the problem . they are a truck transmission design with heavy gears . to get them to shift half decent/fast, they need carbon fiber lined blockers on 2, 3, ad 4, and a shift rod mod and shift detent mod. there are a few places in the us that do these mods but even then they can still not be speed shifted or even close to it unless they are face plated, but that process makes them impractical for the street.
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Yes....ask Mr Hollinger.
then he seems to have the only stock one in the world that can be done with.
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then he seems to have the only stock one in the world that can be done with.
Barnett, Holinger gear boxes are race boxes made here in in Australia, straight gear dog boxes, you change them flat
https://holinger.com.au/
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Barnett, Holinger gear boxes are race boxes made here in in Australia, straight gear dog boxes, you change them flat
https://holinger.com.au/
ok, thanks, . sms's post implied that it can be done with a stock tko600 which was the trans we were discussing, and i know that ain't never gonna happen with a stock tko.
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Didn't Hallibrand have a quick change rear end that took less than 15 minutes to change the gear ratio by just reversing the top and bottom cogs?
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Sorry Barnett.....I was only trying to say that there are gearboxes available outside of US that can handle brutality you gus not used to. There are lots of inventions Ozzies are famous of. The orange coloured black box used in aviation comes to mind.
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Sorry Barnett.....I was only trying to say that there are gearboxes available outside of US that can handle brutality you gus not used to. There are lots of inventions Ozzies are famous of. The orange coloured black box used in aviation comes to mind.
Wifi!!!!!
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Wifi!!!!!
You've been watching too many Skoda ads... :grin:
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Extended wear contact lenses
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Question time again, Sourcing Flexplates.., Having trouble finding a supplier of a 160T Ext bal 10.5" bolt Diam Flexplate, l feel like l am chasing a unicorn, l have heard of others chasing them so l hope someone can throw me a line, if l change to a 157T, l assume that would conflict with the starter, or can gears be changed in those, considering l will have it looked at before it goes back in the car?
As usual thanks for thoughts.., :ouch:
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Ok, Just found a post by Meercat (2014) with the same problem, the general view is a 157T will fit, if so has anybody done this before and had starter issues?
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Make sure you also get correct balance weight to match your crank. It will be either zero, 28oz or 50oz.
The machinist will need the harmonic balancer, rotating assembly and flex plate for balancing.
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Ok, Just found a post by Meercat (2014) with the same problem, the general view is a 157T will fit, if so has anybody done this before and had starter issues?
I am open to correction but I thought the 160 tooth plates were mostly on very early 5 bolt 289's and 260's but occasionally popped up on various Fords until '67. I think they are interchangeable with a 157 tooth one.
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It had me baffled a bit too until l found that there is quite a few around,mine is an orinigal FoMoCo stamped 6bolt 289 flexplate, The car being a jan 67 build maybe ford were just using up old stock? And Yes got the whole 28oz ext bal thing sorted, Just has you second guessing yourself when you cant find one, thanks for feedback..,
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I just caught this thread even though it's getting on. Just like myself :-)
Great decision to go the stroker route.
Much easier, friendly horsepower. To get a 289 to the same means bigger revs= bigger cam= equals worse idle= worse manifold vacuum= fouling spark plugs etc.
You've had some good advice here. Especially from ShaunP and Barnett468.
The cam is a good choice. Not over the top. I'd go 3.5 gears though. Don't even think about the 2.79 you have.
Personally I'd go a little more on the converter though. Closer to 3000 rpm and a decent brand like TCE.
If you have a quality converter you won't see flaring at cruise.
I had a 4500 rpm TCE and you wouldn't pick it from a standard converter until you nailed it.
With this 347 I had a 800 dp Pro systems carb on a victor Junior single plane manifold and 4.11 gears.
I have since changed the cam to a Howards Hyd roller
Lift: .597 / .597, Duration @ .050: 227 / 233, Centerline: 108,Lobe sep 112, Small Base Circle, Good idle, Good all around performance, Good vacuum, 9.5:1+ compression, 2500+ stall converter & gears.
Changed manifold to an Air Gap dual plane, Carb to a Holley 750 Vacuum sec HP, Diff gears to 3.5 (from 4.11), and converter to 3500 rpm.
The engine now has manifold vacuum, clean plugs, cruises on the highway nicely and would still pull a high 11 sec 1/4 mile.
In finishing I'd like to say once this is done you'll need to hang on to ya hat !!
You're in for a surprise.
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As Always, Great to have another opinion, always interested in other peoples stories, thanks,
Happy to say that have finally finished stripping the engine down and dropped it off at the machinist, (the block that is) and have had the new parts being delivered daily, so the rebuild process has begun, exciting times, :pepper:
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Question time again, Sourcing Flexplates.., Having trouble finding a supplier of a 160T Ext bal 10.5" bolt Diam Flexplate, l feel like l am chasing a unicorn, l have heard of others chasing them so l hope someone can throw me a line, if l change to a 157T, l assume that would conflict with the starter, or can gears be changed in those, considering l will have it looked at before it goes back in the car?
As usual thanks for thoughts.., :ouch:
157 28oz is what you need, all starters work as long as the plate is the correct diameter to the bell-housing. My car has an Australian Clevo bell-housing on the Toploader as they have a hydraulic clutch and being RHD I need that. So I run a 164 tooth fly wheel, but the starter is the same.
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157 28oz is what you need, all starters work as long as the plate is the correct diameter to the bell-housing. My car has an Australian Clevo bell-housing on the Toploader as they have a hydraulic clutch and being RHD I need that. So I run a 164 tooth fly wheel, but the starter is the same.
Good to hear, Thanks again...,
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Back again, Block is still at the machinist, no rush, But do have a question, curious about high volume oil pans,
Considering the budget for this build is growing on a daily basis, (my theory is do it once and do it right) is a hivol pan over kill or just good sense when doing a full build, Have been driving Landcruisers for over 20 years and have always been impressed with their 10lt
plus oil pans, different i know but practically good, anyway, as usual any feedback would be great...,
post script, l do not intend to race or drag this car but a 350+ hp engine is not for Sunday church runs...,
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Back again, Block is still at the machinist, no rush, But do have a question, curious about high volume oil pans,
Considering the budget for this build is growing on a daily basis, (my theory is do it once and do it right) is a hivol pan over kill or just good sense when doing a full build, Have been driving Landcruisers for over 20 years and have always been impressed with their 10lt
plus oil pans, different i know but practically good, anyway, as usual any feedback would be great...,
post script, l do not intend to race or drag this car but a 350+ hp engine is not for Sunday church runs...,
I use the canton ones, I have fully baffled (hinge baffles) Road race on for the 363 dart, but for a cruiser that you will Rev to 6k its not such a big deal. I think the base model Canton one is about 300 & has a crank scraper which is a good thing and a bit of baffling. Your engine with AFR's will be around 400hp
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Now just briefly touching on the AFR head subject, l have heard that the spark plug angle on these heads can cause plug/lead clearance concerns with the headers, is this true or does it come down to AFR compatible headers, any thoughts??
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I have 185 AFR heads and yes the spark plug boots come very close to the extractors and some plugs are a bit of a pain to change , but the AFR heads are that good I just put up with it.
I played around with the plug boots to get the right angle to give enough clearance and it is fine.
I have Castle headers with 1 5/8” primaries to suit a RHD 66.
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Now just briefly touching on the AFR head subject, l have heard that the spark plug angle on these heads can cause plug/lead clearance concerns with the headers, is this true or does it come down to AFR compatible headers, any thoughts??
Can't possibly be any worse than GT40P heads. Changing plugs in these is a real pain but can be done. A set of iridium ones in mine should mean I never have to do it again.
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Now just briefly touching on the AFR head subject, l have heard that the spark plug angle on these heads can cause plug/lead clearance concerns with the headers, is this true or does it come down to AFR compatible headers, any thoughts??
You'll be fine. These heads have a very efficient chamber design with a high swirl action they work very well and flow nice if you haven't already got the rockers you could go for 1.7 rather than 1.6 to wake it up a little more. AFR heads love cam lift up to about 600 thou.
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Thanks for feed back, with regard to lifter ratio, the cam card reads .565 lift with a 1.6 rocker, a 1.7 would give it bang on .600 lift,
The lift on the valves is stated as .600 max, thats too close is it not, l do fully intend to check the cam once assembled to check that it is the one it says it is, but just how much compressive clearance should springs have, l dont know if l want to get the new heads rebuilt to suit higher lift valves?
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Thanks for feed back, with regard to lifter ratio, the cam card reads .565 lift with a 1.6 rocker, a 1.7 would give it bang on .600 lift,
The lift on the valves is stated as .600 max, thats too close is it not, l do fully intend to check the cam once assembled to check that it is the one it says it is, but just how much compressive clearance should springs have, l dont know if l want to get the new heads rebuilt to suit higher lift valves?
You mean max lift on the springs?
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Yeah you are right the 185's have a different spring which only allows 600, so go with 1.6 or change the springs. I was thinking of the 195s which will take 650 thou more presure
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Yeah, sorry l meant on springs, glad somebody knowns what l am on about, any way thanks for feed back, rockers go from 1.6-1.7, nothing in between?
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yep thats it the PAC springs on the 195 comp heads are 155 on the seat and will rev just over 7200, take 650 lift
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...rockers go from 1.6-1.7, nothing in between?
1.65 :thumb:
https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/rocker-arms/make/ford/engine-size/4-7l-289/engine-family/ford-small-block-windsor?N=4294890973
What cam do you have?
What is the static compression?
Did you have the block zero decked?
.
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1.65 :thumb:
https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/rocker-arms/make/ford/engine-size/4-7l-289/engine-family/ford-small-block-windsor?N=4294890973
What cam do you have?
What is the static compression?
Did you have the block zero decked?
.
272 Voodoo HR they are about 560 lift from memory.
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Hey, The cam is as Shuanp says, a 272 it is carded as having .565 lift, so a 1.65 rocker would change it to .583, would that be ok with the AFR 1388 heads, having a limit of .600? .017 doesn't seem like much,
The block is at the machinist as we speak and it will be zero decked,
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Hey, The cam is as Shuanp says, a 272 it is carded as having .565 lift, so a 1.65 rocker would change it to .583, would that be ok with the AFR 1388 heads, having a limit of .600? .017 doesn't seem like much,
It's enough.
I would use the cometic head gaskets and if you have 3.50 gears or numerically higher and run premium gas, I would run a least 10.0 compression and more like 10.5.
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Block back from machinist and ready for rebuild!!
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Before, clogged up was an understatement
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Make sure you drill a hole in the gallery plug behind the disy gear
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...before you install it. :smile01:
i put them in the other lifter galley plug on the other side also.
i use a .020" (.5 mm) bit
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Bored and honed, Tunnel honed to suit ARP mains bolts, one piece rear seal, zero decked, clearance ground for stroker crank,balanced 0.4gm
oil gallery plug hole drilled, (one side), Why the other side?? Cam bearings fitted, new welsh plugs and all bolt holes retapped, l think thats about it
for the block..,Can't wait to start putting it back together..,
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oil gallery plug hole drilled, (one side), Why the other side??
the more oil on the cam chain the better, plus it helps lubricate the thrust surface between the cam and the retaining plate.
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the more oil on the cam chain the better, plus it helps lubricate the thrust surface between the cam and the retaining plate.
oh wait...can we turn this into an ol thread now too! :thumb:
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Why?? Are you quietly expecting this rebuild to turn to sh*t.., :lol:
Do beg my pardon, what is "ol"?
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one hole is fine thats all I drill its the disy gear you want wet and believe me heaps of oil comes out of that hole.
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Why?? Are you quietly expecting this rebuild to turn to sh*t.., :lol:
Do beg my pardon, what is "ol"?
My us to australian translation book says it is the ozzie word for "oil" so i was just tryin to speak your language. :lmao:
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Question time again, have purchased a set of Wiseco forged pistons, now there is no markings, dots, arrows on the tops to indicate piston orientation,
And there is valve relief machining grooves in the tops on one side only, am assuming these reliefs go to the intake/valley side of the cylinder, so once assembled all reliefs should be pointing to the centre of the engine,
Also with connecting rods (scat I beams) the Larger chamfer goes to the crank journal side and the lesser chamfer side goes against it "paired rod"
even if the markings on the mains ends dont match the markings on its "paired rod" if that makes sense, l am not talking about rod and caps, they are numbered and you cant possibly get them wrong, Am l correct??
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what is the part number on the pistons?
intake valve relief goes to the rear on the left side and to the front on the right side but it should have a relief for the exhaust too unless it is a boss 302 or 251 cleveland piston.
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PTS511A4
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looking now but can you photo of the top of them?
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Piston
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Also with connecting rods (scat I beams) the Larger chamfer goes to the crank journal side and the lesser chamfer side goes against it "paired rod"... ...correct?
Yes
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:hello: :hi:
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It's been a while, where have you been, and how's your little task going?
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Question time again, have purchased a set of Wiseco forged pistons, now there is no markings, dots, arrows on the tops to indicate piston orientation,
And there is valve relief machining grooves in the tops on one side only, am assuming these reliefs go to the intake/valley side of the cylinder, so once assembled all reliefs should be pointing to the centre of the engine,
Also with connecting rods (scat I beams) the Larger chamfer goes to the crank journal side and the lesser chamfer side goes against it "paired rod"
even if the markings on the mains ends dont match the markings on its "paired rod" if that makes sense, l am not talking about rod and caps, they are numbered and you cant possibly get them wrong, Am l correct??
So the rods, the fly cuts for the bearings go to the center of the engine thats it, this then will have the chamfer to the crank throw.
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:thumb: :thumb:
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:hello: :hi:
He's ALIVE!
:lmao:
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Piston
Ok, those are correct and they mount the way I previously described.
(https://treperformance.com/images/F143859714.jpg)
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:pepper: :pepper:
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Did your pistons come with "custom" reliefs in the skirts ? :lol:
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He's ALIVE!
:lmao:
That i am my friend... :cheers:
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Did your pistons come with "custom" reliefs in the skirts ? :lol:
Too funny, Have lovely little radiused notches at the bottoms of the cylinder sleeves, neat and tidy, quietly impressed.., :smile01:
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Too funny, Have lovely little radiused notches at the bottoms of the cylinder sleeves, neat and tidy, quietly impressed.., :smile01:
fitzy's builder let his pistons make their own clearance. :lmao:
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That i am my friend... :cheers:
glad to hear it, now if you are finally done remodeling, let's get back to fixing your engine! :thumb:
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Back again, Have been going through the joys of degreeing? (is that even a word) my cam, now the crank gear has several key ways cut into it, at 2,4,6 and 8 degrees, both advanced and retarded, l have set the crank gear to 8 degrees advanced and still have only got to 102.5 lobe centre line,
Target figure is 106, it seems like such a large adjustment from the original line up dots, and still need more,does this sound right to anyone, does the rest of adjustment have to be done by rotating the crank gear one chain link at a time? have checked the lobe lift and it is within 0.002" so am confident the cam is correct, timing set is a rollmaster, am done for the day, my brain is fried, as usual any thoughts much appreciated..,
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That is a howards cam and rollmaster chain. Line up dots on zero and it will be correct.
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Did you get the block relieved do the pistons have clearance?
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Thanks for reply, cam is a Lunati Voodoo, block has been relieved, all looks good inside with clearances etc, will tackle the timing again this morning
with a fresh mind and a strong coffee, :shrug:
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Ok, amazing what you can achieve with a fresh mind, all sorted and within 1 degree, obviously misreading numbers last night, so the lesson is,
dont degree a cam on a Friday night after a busy week..., and before you all start there was no booze involved, will save that moment for later..,
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so the lesson is, dont degree a cam on a Friday night after a busy week..., and before you all start there was no booze involved,
I would have lied and said there was. :thumb:
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Wasn't this all covered in my 60+ page thread... :leaving:
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Wasn't this all covered in my 60+ page thread... :leaving:
God pleeeease...I'm trying to forget that. :thud:
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Back again, rebuild going nicely but now waiting on parts to arrive, so "question time again" researching fuel pumps, will be going for a mechanical but there is pumps and pumps, everything from 6 to 10psi and beyond, so for a, 347 with a lunati 272 cam AFR 185 heads and a Holley 750dp l have no idea what sort of flow/pressure is req'd, any ideas from you guys with similar builds and are regulators necessary? As usual, thanks for any feedback.., :shrug:
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If you are not racing it, a stock pump which is around 7 to 8 psi and stock size fuel lines will be fine. Glenn had an issue with his he can tell you about, but it was running out of fuel near the end of the track and i think he said he installed a bigger line from the tank to the pump to fix it but i don't remember exactly what he used for the entire system. If glenn or shaunp don't reply you can send them a pm and ask. Obviously big lines and a fancy electric fuel pump and high flow needle valve in the carb will eliminate any fuel starvation issues but unless you have extra cash to spend you might want to just use the stock parts. I have never had one run out of fuel like glenn has but i don't race them either. I never floor them for more then around 1/8th of a mile.
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:thumb: :thumb:
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3/8 fuel line you can buy then new prebent. and 3/8 gauge sender
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I ended up have problems with my original 5/16 fuel line , fuel line was clogged up with crap . I then ran a 3/8 line from sender to carb and no more problems . I just bought a roll of alloy fuel line for about $50 . I ran a Holley mech fuel pump that did not need a fuel reg and I had no problems again . 750 DP Holley on an edelbrock RpM intake with a 1/2 inch spacer and revved it to 6,000 rpm for years . That was in my 66 and I sold the car a few weeks back . Owned the car for 10 years without to many problems other than shitting the American hi stall converter .
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If you don't feel like bending your fuel line, factory 69/70 3/8 fuel line terminates at the same location either end as a 65/66. The fuel line just goes along the rail instead of in the tunnel. As mentioned you will need the 3/8 sender to make it all match up nicely. I have two of them on my 65 ;)
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Thanks for feedback guys, you say that a factory 3/8 line 69/70 fits a 65/66, how about a 67? I wouldn't think there would to too much difference..,
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Thanks for feedback guys, you say that a factory 3/8 line 69/70 fits a 65/66, how about a 67? I wouldn't think there would to too much difference..,
After reading glenns post, you should not have any issues with the stock size lines unless you are drag racing it for 1/2 mile or more, and even then you probably won't have a problem. If I were to do anything, I would install a high flow needle and seat but even that is probably not necessary in your case. A high volume aftermarket fuel pump has the ability to suck the fuel forward from the fuel tank under hard acceleration, so again, if you do plan to race the 1/4 mile, I would definitely install one and the high flow needle and seat.
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Don't intend to race or drag this car, its going to be a fun cruiser...,
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Thanks for feedback guys, you say that a factory 3/8 line 69/70 fits a 65/66, how about a 67? I wouldn't think there would to too much difference..,
Mustang Auto sell a 3/8 line for 67 but I think its actually a 66 one
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Don't intend to race or drag this car, its going to be a fun cruiser...,
I wouldn't reinvent the wheel then but i would get a high quality oem type fuel pump.
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Definitely, not going to all this expense with the engine only to put the old crappy one back on..., :thumb:
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Definitely, not going to all this expense with the engine only to put the old crappy one back on..., :thumb:
no need to, you can just buy a new orig replacement line then use the stock size sender unit.
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3/8 sender for standard tank, I generally put the later 20 or 22 gallon tanks in though
https://mustangautoparts.com.au/collections/mustang-fuel/products/fuel-sender-65-68
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Progress update, waiting on heads,
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And more
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Back again gents, this time with a subject that has almost been done to death, Dissy gears.......,
Now my cam is a lunati voodoo, and l cant for the life of me find on the spec sheet or their web site what material it is classified as, this whole billet vs iron hydraulic (ductile iron) seems to me a tad baffling, so my question is if l can get a melonized gear for my dissy that seems to tick all the boxes, if not do l use a hardened steel gear, running up the white flag once again..., :shrug:
Now l have just read about Composite gears to ad to the choice, any thoughts on those??
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Finally got a response from Lunati tech support, and the cam is made out of Induction Hardened Cast Iron,
So the dissy gear is to be Melonized or Cast iron. Why they can't say that on the spec sheet is one of the mysteries of the @#%&ing universe..,
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Finally got a response from Lunati tech support, and the cam is made out of Induction Hardened Cast Iron,
So the dissy gear is to be Melonized or Cast iron. Why they can't say that on the spec sheet is one of the mysteries of the @#%&ing universe..,
Yes most hydraulic Roller cams are SADI. Selectively austempered ductile iron, these need a melonized steel gear, a Steel Billet HR/SR need bronze or Melonized,
Cast cam can use iron or melonized. If you have drilled the hole in the plug behind the dissy to let oil in you will be fine regardless.
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:thumb: :thumb:
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Now l have just read about Composite gears to ad to the choice, any thoughts on those??
Many instances of breakage. They are designed for engines that use a dry sump oil system so there is much less load on the gear.
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Back again after quite some time, The engine rebuild got put on the back burner for some time due to other things, anyway have been busy sourcing new parts to finish this off, got the new heads, intake, carb, rockers etc, up to the stage of chasing pushrods, so," Attention" Barnett, rereading back through the pages of this thread and one of the suggestions was 'Howards .118" chromoly pushrods, I haven't been able to find any such rod. .080" is the thickest I can find, and I assume that would be ample for my situation, as usual, if anyone has any thoughts/suggestions feel free to share..,
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Back again after quite some time, The engine rebuild got put on the back burner for some time due to other things, anyway have been busy sourcing new parts to finish this off, got the new heads, intake, carb, rockers etc, up to the stage of chasing pushrods, so," Attention" Barnett, rereading back through the pages of this thread and one of the suggestions was 'Howards .118" chromoly pushrods, I haven't been able to find any such rod. .080" is the thickest I can find, and I assume that would be ample for my situation, as usual, if anyone has any thoughts/suggestions feel free to share..,
what cam and spring pressure are you running?
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Ok, Cam is a Lunati, lift Int .551" Ex .565" Recommended rocker ratio 1.6
Rockers Comp Cams Gold 1.6
Heads AFR 1388 185's Ext spring 140 lbs int spring 365 lbs .600 max lift
Lifters Howards 'link bar'
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Ok, Cam is a Lunati, lift Int .551" Ex .565" Recommended rocker ratio 1.6
Rockers Comp Cams Gold 1.6
Heads AFR 1388 185's Ext spring 140 lbs int spring 365 lbs .600 max lift
Lifters Howards 'link bar'
you can get them from the following mfg's however, unless you are revving it to the moon and trying to get ever last hp out of it that you can, the .080" wall chromoly ones will be ok.
smith brothers
manton
trend performance
howards cams
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:thumb: :thumb:
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Hey Gents, looking for peoples opinions on dissys, looking at MSD in particular and there is about 600 to choose from, specifically vac advance over mechanical, the vac advance seem to be more expensive, not that cost is the point of choice, just interested in peoples thoughts and past experiences, Thanks Andrew..,
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I think a few people are having issues with MSD's rusting inside and are buying the Aussie I.C.E. instead.
Make sure you match the dizzy gear to your cam material.
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Another pleasant afternoon..,
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Quick question regarding dipstick to the knowledgeable,
It appears there is a groove to allow for an O ring at the stop of the stick, which is probably long gone, is that the case, also have searched for images and most appear to have a collar that fits over the tube, build date is Jan 67, not going concourse but wondering if it has been swapped? Any thoughts..,
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Does actually fit together quite well,
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Can't comment on the dipstick, but K&N filters are virtually the same price as Ryco. Maybe I believe their hype but they are all I use on all my cars.
I have MSD 8579 distributor, 6AL box and HVC coil. Very happy with it but if I went again I'd probably go ICE. They seem to be pretty good and back their stuff if it fails.
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Discovered a part number and starting to wonder if this is original, Should’nt a Mustang part have a Z in it? O is Fairlane or Torino isn’t it???
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Same part # as on my '67.
No O ring or collar on mine.
The auto trans dipstick on mine has a collar though.
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Thanks Gents for your replies.
To 67FBGT, very interesting and reassuring at the same time...,
To SMHOON, seems to be growing feedback that an ICE ignition is the way to go...,
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Thanks Gents for your replies.
To 67FBGT, very interesting and reassuring at the same time...,
To SMHOON, seems to be growing feedback that an ICE ignition is the way to go...,
you shouldn't have a problem with an msd unless you are in a humid area. the ice may be best but it's quite pricey.
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Okay Guys, I have a question that most likely has an obvious answer, Getting to the business end of this engine rebuild ( waiting on a Dissy ) and a few other minors and it's done, very keen to take it to get run in, tuned and dyno'd and see what this baby can do, But, then it will be wrapped up and put away in a corner for 12-18 months min whilst the body etc gets its turn, which is probably not ideal.
Or do I curb my enthusiasm wrap it up now, and then fire it up a little closer to body completion, Probably answered my own question but there has to be others in the same situation..?? :shrug:
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Surely best to test it now while memories of the build and parts sourcing are fresh, and while warranties, if any, are current?
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Okay Guys, I have a question that most likely has an obvious answer, Getting to the business end of this engine rebuild ( waiting on a Dissy ) and a few other minors and it's done, very keen to take it to get run in, tuned and dyno'd and see what this baby can do, But, then it will be wrapped up and put away in a corner for 12-18 months min whilst the body etc gets its turn, which is probably not ideal.
Or do I curb my enthusiasm wrap it up now, and then fire it up a little closer to body completion, Probably answered my own question but there has to be others in the same situation..?? :shrug:
I would not dyno a street engine until it had at least 500 miles on it using non synthetic oil.
Running the engine now then storing it will not cause any problems other than you will need to re-prime the oil system when you fire it up again and you will need to drain the carb before you store it.
.