Engine rebuild

[ralph66]

thanks for the responses all

[Reborn67]

 Back with another question !! sourcing pistons and rings, are piston rings made to a standard size, as in cross sectional size, so if l wanted 20 thou over size rings would they fit all makes of 20 thou over pistons, or do rings have to be piston brand specific,  curios as some suppliers have 'rings included' but are they as good as the ones you guys use or suggest, ie total seal etc.....,

[shaunp]

Back with another question !! sourcing pistons and rings, are piston rings made to a standard size, as in cross sectional size, so if l wanted 20 thou over size rings would they fit all makes of 20 thou over pistons, or do rings have to be piston brand specific,  curios as some suppliers have 'rings included' but are they as good as the ones you guys use or suggest, ie total seal etc.....,

Some pistons have metric rings some have imperial as in the depth of the ring,  so  say 1/16 or 1.5mm  etc so you must match the ring to the piston.  sample below Total seal is my favorite brand, or Marhle

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/tsr-cr369030/overview/

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/tsr-cr1001-35/overview/

[shaunp]

I often use these DSS pistons they are 4032 alloy rather that 2618 so you can run them tighter in a mild engine.  they use 5/64-3/16 rings

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/dms-8741-4030/overview/make/ford

[shaunp]

5/64 rings

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/tsr-cr9090-30/overview/

[Reborn67]

 Thanks again for response and info, 
 in regard to your facebook invite , please don't think me rude but l am not on it
 am happy just to do the forum thing at the moment, am learning more than l expected.....,

[shaunp]

With forged pistons to be clear,they are typically made from 2 kinds alloy the 2618 alloy is not required unless you really want to flog shit out of it or use power adders, this alloy is more malleable  and less likely to break. This alloy is less stable to temperature though, and needs greater cylinder to skirt clearance  as it expands more. They rattle a bit when the engine is cold. Having said that I run this alloy in my own engines.

[barnett468]

...and either material will be fine for your app. the 2618's may be cheaper than 4032 in oz. i just like to run them as tight as possible so i use the 4032's. also, the mahles, which are 4032 material for stroker engines come out of the bottom of the bore a little less than some others on a 347 plus their skirt design lends itself to possibly being just a little bit more stable in the bore at the bottom of the stroke.

there is also piston design to consider which is a whole other discussion.

there are numersous styles of rings as well like reverse twist and dykes, and L and gapless and chrome etc. i typically use thin plasma moly rings. the plasma ones typically are better than the moly filled ones at least in my experience, and i use thinner rings than standard size. most high perf pistons are made for thinner rings anyway so there is rarely a choice. the thinner rings have less drag on the cylinder so an engine will have just a tiny bit more hp with them and will rev just a tiny bit faster and will put just a tiny bit less load on the cooling system because of the lower friction. there are also low tension rings which is what the factories used in some engines like the 5.0's etc. these wear the bore less so an engine will last longer but i don't know of snyone using them for street apps..

you can analyze every single thing part on an engine to death trying to get the "perfect" combo, and in the end it won't really make much, if any real difference at all in the big scheme of things, plus it can take a year to explain it all and most people including myself don't know every little thing like the tensile or shear strength or modulus of elasticity or the grain structure of every part etc so we can only give you limited info.

[Reborn67]

 Thanks again for your input, l suppose its like everything, you dont know how involved it is until you get into it, then its a sharp learning curve, l dont want to know every minute detail, that comes with years of experience. just the finer points of the basics so when there is a choice of parts or techniques l know which way to go...., also. 'question time again' looking at cam specs there seems to be a variant in timing sequences, 137... to 154.... is that relevant in my case?
 Back to pistons again, piston pins, press fit or floating?

[barnett468]

Thanks again for your input, l suppose its like everything, you dont know how involved it is until you get into it, then its a sharp learning curve,

bingo!

[barnett468]

just the finer points of the basics so when there is a choice of parts or techniques l know which way to go...., also. 'question time again' looking at cam specs there seems to be a variant in timing sequences, 137... to 154.... is that relevant in my case?
 Back to pistons again, piston pins, press fit or floating?

don't even begin to try and understand cam specs. it is rocket science. i would just use what the majority of the people suggest after you decide exactly what parts you want and how you want it to run etc.

all performance pistons and pins are floating which is what yours will be with a stroker.

[shaunp]

With respect to cams and fireing order buy a cam with 351 order, this puts less load on the front bearing so 1-3, the Voodoo cam is 351 so all good

[barnett468]

And all 5.0 roller cams have the 351 firing order as well.

[Reborn67]

 Thanks again, well.., took the heads off and the sump and pulled a piston out, and happy, and somewhat relieved to see that the big end bearings are stamped FoMoCo, 11 66  which kinda sits right with the cars build date of Jan 67, the piston measured 3.995"  and bore seems to be 4.000 or very close to it, as best l can measure with a vernier.., as at this stage all l have to measure with, so it would seem the engine is original, now all l hope is it is sound,fingers crossed..,

[shaunp]

Thanks again, well.., took the heads off and the sump and pulled a piston out, and happy, and somewhat relieved to see that the big end bearings are stamped FoMoCo, 11 66  which kinda sits right with the cars build date of Jan 67, the piston measured 3.995"  and bore seems to be 4.000 or very close to it, as best l can measure with a vernier.., as at this stage all l have to measure with, so it would seem the engine is original, now all l hope is it is sound,fingers crossed..,

All good then you can go to 030. all you need to save is the block

[Reborn67]

  Yet another question, you guys must be getting sick of this, reading another thread about 289/347 rebuild [ june '17] and saw a picture of a main bearing girdle, l assume this is for top end performance builds,  but does this have any relevance to the standard ford block stroking build?

[shaunp]

  Yet another question, you guys must be getting sick of this, reading another thread about 289/347 rebuild [ june '17] and saw a picture of a main bearing girdle, l assume this is for top end performance builds,  but does this have any relevance to the standard ford block stroking build?

Lots of people believe they do nothing , lots of people swear by them. I'm of the view that they do no harm and have to make some difference, how much I'm not sure, the build you are planning doesn't need one. But like changing from factory main bolts to ARP bolts/studs you should line bore them once you use any of this stuff, just as I always Torque bore & hone. ARP bolts use higher torque which may distort the tunnel etc. I'm anal about this type of thing, having had some big Holden red motor failures in the 80's, with things coming out the side, but we never had the stuff you can buy today, it was mostly over stressed stock parts. I had stroker crank in my XU1 which was 1/2 Falcon , 1/2 holden, cut and shut machined , pressed together and welded, was made by Ron Harrop

[barnett468]

  Yet another question, you guys must be getting sick of this...

not in the least, i was just trying to explain why in some instances, the info you are asking for either isn't all the useful or isn't really easy to explain or understand etc. fee free to ask away.

... reading another thread about 289/347 rebuild [ june '17] and saw a picture of a main bearing girdle, l assume this is for top end performance builds,  but does this have any relevance to the standard ford block stroking build?

Here's more info to add to shaunp's comments. Dowel pins in the main caps probably do more for most high perf builds than arp studs and main girdles combined. The main caps can, and sometimes do, move a tiny bit even though those suckers seem to have a lot of force from the bolts holding them down. In the US this condition is often referred to main cap "walk".

One of the few things that can happen is that the sides of the caps can pull inward under high loads which occur when one is beating the crap out of their engine. This is caused by the downward force of the crank on the center of the cap. The dowels prevent the caps from walking 100%. They do not prevent the bottom of the cap from moving forward or rearward though, however, this seems to be less of a problem if they do then the caps walking and deforming inward somewhat.

Since the caps are cast iron, they can crack, but that is extremely rare on a street engine in my experience, but to reduce the risk of that occurring, steel caps can be installed.

Ford was concerned about the caps cracking on the 271 hi po engines so they simply made the cap wider. The blocks Ford had made in mexico all came with the wider caps, so they are highly sought after by some people but the blocks are extremely rare.

The best cap scenario would be ARP bolts, steel caps, dowel pins, and a stud girdle. In the US this would only cost around $1400.00 to do which would probably be around $8,000.00 in oz. 

[shaunp]

$1400 US, wouldn't bother to spend that on much extra on 289/302 block, may as well just get a Dart block

line bore is about $400, studs about $100.

[barnett468]

$1400 US, wouldn't bother to spend that on much extra on 289/302 block, may as well just get a Dart block.

yeah, not many people do that type of stuff here anymore. i was just giving him a bit more info since he seems to want to learn a bit.

[Dwayne]

$1400 US, wouldn't bother to spend that on much extra on 289/302 block, may as well just get a Dart block

line bore is about $400, studs about $100.

What machine work do the dart blocks need?

Is it just a final hone to match the pistons?

[shaunp]

hone to size, fit cam bearings, deck. maybe hone the tunnel.

[lukep6470]

hone to size, fit cam bearings, deck. maybe hone the tunnel.

If you buy one of their short blocks you might well be doing all this anyway :-)

[barnett468]

What machine work do the dart blocks need?

Is it just a final hone to match the pistons?

One needs to check the distributor gear height (up and down freeplay). fitzys was binding and I think this is what killed his cam, or it at least probably contributed to its premature demise.

[shaunp]

One needs to check the distributor gear height (up and down freeplay). fitzys was binding and I think this is what killed his cam, or it at least probably contributed to its premature demise.

I think perhaps the legend builder may have fitted the brass gear wrong not that the block was wrong perhaps.