Opinions required on paint type please

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Offline jiffy

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« on: June 22, 2009, 07:05:03 pm »
I posted this a few days agao but it was at the end of anothe post, so I'll try it in isolation:
What are people's recommendations for paint? 2-pak or Acrylic? My paint guys says the following:
2-pak gives great hardness, great shine, easy spraying, big chips, hard touch-ups and matching, wrong finish for an old car, however:
Acrylic gives reasonable shine off the gun, ability to cut n polish, small/no chips, easy touch-ups & matching, not so hard surface wise...

Votes for/against?????
Black '69 CJ 4SPD car under construction (425/504)
Black 2002 SVT Cobra - 2003 Terminator Clone (575rwhp/716rwtq - SOLD)
Black ‘63.5 Galaxie 4SPD fastback (just you wait...)

Offline shaunp

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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2009, 07:47:33 pm »
Firstly 2k/COB is no harder to match than Acrylic, it's harder in strength needs less polishing etc, big chips are from too much film thickness, not the paint the primers are better, ie hold out repairs better, build better etc. You can rub and cut, just like acrylic, I normally cut  the crap out of it on a good car, It's no drama.

Offline jonn

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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2009, 10:12:23 pm »
Hopefully I won’t get flamed for having an each way bet.

I like the visual look of acrylic for older cars. But having said that, I’ve just had the inside of my cowl painted in 2-pac due to the great gloss of the gun and hopefully low maintenance.

Offline non member

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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 10:20:14 pm »
Haven't painted with acrylic since the late 70's, would not consider going back either.

The new paints, especially water based, are unreal, easy to use & to spot repair. The new paints handle the elements better, also spills in engine bays have little effect.

However this is not for the weekend "once in a while" painter as the set up costs are big.

Offline PNYGTA

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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 10:24:16 pm »
Hey Jonn

Pls check your U2U

Cheers

PNYGTA

Offline PNYGTA

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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 10:24:29 pm »
Hey Jonn

Pls check you U2U

Cheers

PNYGTA

Offline soc123_au

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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2009, 08:37:05 am »
2K all the way, Acrylic has had its day. Acrylic is nowhere near as good as used to be, around the end of the 80s they took all the lead out of it. Since then acrylic is about as useful as a back pocket in a singlet.

I dont agree with ozbilt regarding waterbase, it is not for the novice painter & it can be very finicky to use. It also needs to be sealed with a traditional solvent based clear. The whole waterbase thing is a bit of a myth at this stage, at least in Australia. Until they develop a full waterbase system there doesnt seem a lot of point.

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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2009, 09:11:50 am »
soc123_au

Read my post again, I said it is NOT for the weekend painter.

I have had no issue with the new systems both in CA & here.

With anything, always use the one system for the complete job, ie; etch, hi build primer, base & clear. Most of all, note othe safety precautions in the data sheet & follow them.

Offline soc123_au

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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2009, 09:34:56 am »
Sorry my mistake, I based my comment on the fact you said they were easy to use. I agree with the set up costs to use the systems correctly, pretty oppresive. Being from the US you would probably have a bit more experience with the new generation waterbourne. Most of my experience is from the old Cobra Aquabase, worst paint ever made.

Offline 67TTCoupe

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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2009, 09:44:20 am »
2pk. all the way.

lot less maintenance. harder wearing and looks so much better.

wouldnt go back to acrylic ever.

if u doing it yourself safety equipment can cost a small fortune.

there are alternatives in 2pk clear but the deadly one will be the 2pk high fill primer and surfacer as there are no "healthier" alternatives.

as for stone chips...... stop tailgating and u wont have any :(

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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 09:48:42 am »
You are not whistling "Dixie" when talking about Cobra, look at my pic here

http://boss.org.au/nsw/2007/chips/pages/P1010035.htm

The clear fell off on our Mach 1 in CA, it had been painted with Cobra in Australia in 93 before we took it to the States. Car is back here now & will get its second full restoration next year.

Offline soc123_au

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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 10:13:12 am »
67TT, I am not sure where you have got you info regarding healthy choice 2k clears. There is no such animal, all 2ks require a hardener that is choc full of isocyanate. There are different mixing ratios from brand to brand ie 2parts clear 1 parts hardener, 4 parts clear to 1 part hardener etc but they are all potentialy deadly if not used correctly. Anything without a hardener is not a 2K. You can use Acrylic clear over a basecoat system designed for a 2K clear, base coats are not 2K. As for safety gear 99 percent of painters I have ever worked with including myself just use a Sundstrom half mask. Air fed is a pain in the backside & not at all nice to use. Spraybooths are designed to keep dirt out of the paint & for baking not to keep the painter healthy. There are plenty of cars driving about that are done in 2K & have never seen the inside of a booth. A Sundstrom mask & filters will set you back under $200.00, just make sure you keep it in an airtight container (Tuperware is good) when not in use as the air will wreck the gas filter.

Ozbilt they mustn't of waited the mandatory 3 days to let the aquabase flash off before they cleared it:w I hated waiting for that crap to flash between coats & to make it worse it covered like garbage as well.

Offline shaunp

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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 10:32:41 am »
I didn't mind the normal Cobra, never used the Aqua base though. I have an S type Jag I painted in Cobra in about 92-93, the paint is still fine, but the bog has some moisture under it on some of the repairs, light suface rust which is making it blister because the bog is very thin you can just see it, but the paint it self is as good as when I put it on. So it needs a strip, reskim and repaint as a result, shame really.
If you buy a new Sundstrom they should come with a sealed container.  I may post 2K in a titan shed pics, when I get around to it, you can do it but you'll spend some extra time on the buff to cut the dust out. My mate won at the Summer nats with an FJ called jigsaw, we painted it in 2K white pearl under his dads house at Manly.  Like Steve said booths keep the dust out(some times, depending on the booth and how well looked after it is) and dry the paint quicker so you can push more cars out. 2k has come along way from Dulux Acran days.
Steve did you get some of the Brandy wine candy to try?

I thought the whole water bourne thing was to satisfy Euro polution laws?

Offline 67TTCoupe

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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2009, 10:55:27 am »
soc123 i did use (") inverted comas around healthier :+

ive used a 2:1 and 4:1  clear that had quite a bit less isocyanate from memory about half than the normal Dupont 4:1. so it is bit "healthier" LOL... got to find what brand it is. havent used in 3 years or so.

it was bit of a pain to apply and took ages to air dry completely. not as nice as the normal Dupont 120s Clear i think is what i use now. prob got my numbers mixed with the primer so dont take too much notice of it.

ive got a full face mask with clean air feed but ive used it twice and chucked in the cabinet. it sucked.

I as well now only use sundstrom mask and filters. when done i keep it in similar container inside the house.

all the cars i did weren't painted in the spray booth.can get dusty if the shed is not cleaned properly. also air dried not baked. not in a hurry LOL.... its only my hobby.

still come as good if not better than the insurance job that one of my cars got done at a very expensive crash repairer.

lol i made them redo the car twice. just becuase its a nissan in midst of BMW and Bentleys it doesnt mean they can do dodgy jobs :*

though dust should be history when my new workshop is made with spray booth and if i can afford the heaters for winter months. should be set.

so i still say 2pk any day.

ill try find some pics of my dato painted in the shed.

Offline soc123_au

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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2009, 11:02:31 am »
The cobra sovent basecoat was good stuff, it was only the aqua base that was rubbish. Yes the whole waterbourne revoloution is a european driven thing, it is now mandatory over there. It will take a few years to take hold over here but it will come. Most paint technology is driven by the euro market so solvent base will die accordingly. Glasurit & PPG are pretty much ready to roll over here but Metalux & Protec etc are a bit behind.

Havent got any Brandywine yet, I have got a perspex sprayout of Scarlet & some leftover Apple Red. I still have plenty to do before any paint will be getting put on. I will have to get that fan out & get it up to you.

Offline shaunp

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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 11:08:26 am »
 No rush on the fan, as I have to make time to get to John's to do it anyway, not sure when it will be, I still have to cut up my blower housing but it's the easy bit, of the AC. You have to get the fan correct as it vibrates like crap if you don't and if you don't reverse the fan vanes you get less little air flow. Did you get the pedal box picture?

Offline HEVEN67

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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2009, 11:27:14 am »
Can you tell he difference? Whats mine painted with?


2 pac of course and thats 12 years.
A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend. A successful woman is one who can find such a man.




Real muscle cars have 3 pedals. Where theres smoke theres Tyres

Offline soc123_au

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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2009, 12:44:54 pm »
Looks good after 12 years.

Offline mjb0015

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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 06:18:06 pm »
Well mine is being painted with Acrylic, I am a bit worried now about the result, especially after reading what all you guys have said. Even more worried as the car was 2K before and my painter said acrylic will look great, should have gone with my instincts @#*#.

mjb

Offline GT Sally

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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2009, 07:14:54 pm »
Mine was painted by the previous owner, Spies Hecker 2k, chopped and flow coated with clear. My son is an auto refinisher (& looking 4 a job around St George/Canterbury area if any shop out there needs a good painter) but didn't paint it! Looks great but I wish he had done the job!
If you haven't grown up & matured by the age of 55, (65 now & nothin has changed) YOU DON'T HAVE TOO.....Gary

Offline shaunp

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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2009, 07:25:44 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by mjb0015
Well mine is being painted with Acrylic, I am a bit worried now about the result, especially after reading what all you guys have said. Even more worried as the car was 2K before and my painter said acrylic will look great, should have gone with my instincts @#*#.

mjb

A properly done acrylic job does look great, I've done plenty, but it's harder work and takes more to maintain. We use to base them , clear them, rub them clear them, 1500 them, cut them with MAX, then Tcut, then corn flour, my own XU1 in Chateau Mouve mettalic was as good as any 2k, bet it isn't now though. COB 2k is good as now, no need to use anything else.

Offline seany-boy

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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2009, 10:26:11 pm »
as one of your local paint advisors, a well finished acrylic job will look almost identical to a 2k finish, however it envolves a hell of a lot more work.
acrylic does not give a good gloss off the gun. period. low/mid gloss is the best you'll get.
acrylic needs to be buffed heavily, often with a wool pad to give good shine.
the advantage: a flat finish, however 2k gives the same result if flow coated.
personally, id prefer to flow coat a car then cut the entire thing.
2k is durable, however acrylic is solvent sensitive and will dull off, meaning it needs to be buffed regularly to maintain the gloss.
there is a good reason the industry moved to 2k. it wasnt for no reason.
as already said, chips are the result of poor preparation or heavy paint film thickness, however 2k can be repaired similar to acrylic, ie. touchups can be rubbed back and buffed and you would never know.
as for waterbourne, the technology for basecoat is well on the way. with the airdriers, flashoff time is reduced, and the slow drying of the waterbourne helps reduce mottle.
if applied correctly it is easier to use than solvent base. prehaps a little slower.
the clear is still the obvious restriction.
And as you can see, this is not Seany-boy - my user name has been pinched by your paint advisor ;]

Offline non member

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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2009, 10:28:43 pm »
So who is this really ?????

Offline seany-boy

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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2009, 10:35:04 pm »
jiffy's nephew -  one of his local paint guys! Said Uncle's never listen ;}

Offline mach70

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« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2009, 10:55:26 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by soc123_au
. As for safety gear 99 percent of painters I have ever worked with including myself just use a Sundstrom half mask. Air fed is a pain in the backside & not at all nice to use.  A Sundstrom mask & filters will set you back under $200.00, just make sure you keep it in an airtight container (Tuperware is good) when not in use as the air will wreck the gas filter.

 



From memory (I will confirm tomorrow) Sundstrom DO NOT repeat DO NOT have a filter suitable for isocynates.

I know most body shops etc use these but they are not suitable.

The filters will filter out the paint drops - thats the particulate filter a 210/310 (old number). The Gas Filter ie 294 or 297 cannot and do not filter out the isocynates.

Most painters never have a problem but its like smoking it builds up on your lungs and can cause cancer.

This comes from 20+ years in the safety industry and many refusals to sell Sundstrom half mask filters to anyone using 2K.

I will get more up to date info tomorrow and will post.

Cheers

Shawn