Opinions required on paint type please

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Offline rocket

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« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2009, 12:11:07 am »
Quote
Originally posted by mjb0015
Well mine is being painted with Acrylic, I am a bit worried now about the result, especially after reading what all you guys have said. Even more worried as the car was 2K before and my painter said acrylic will look great, should have gone with my instincts @#*#.

mjb


mjb, i agree with your painter - especially due to the cold weather in Adelaide.

I am having a debate with our painter right now about it. He wants to use a protec paint called 706? as the base, and then an Acrylic clear over the top of it.

We do not have a booth/oven so the cold weather means the 2 pak will take a long time to flash off and may result in runs.
Also, upon close inspection of the last car he painted - little dimples in a couple of panels which i believe is solvent pop.

Acrylic can be painted in cold weather ( i once painted an XF Falcon at night in 8 degrees temperatures and it buffed up just fine ).

The Stang that i recently painted had no solvent pop and no runs. I used plenty of clear in the final coats. After wetrubbing and polishing it looks a treat.
Acrylic may not be high tech - but the potential health issues of 2 pak worry me.

So tomorrow i am ordering Acrylic!!

Maybe the guys up north do not have to worry about the cold temps - but Adelaide is bloody cold this time of year.

If you need some tips on how to keep the Acrylic looking great - check out the Detail Paradise Forum.

Rocket.
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Offline hybrid

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« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2009, 07:44:50 am »
I thought the spray booths were also there by law?
I didn't think you were allowed to paint any more without the water filter thingy. ie - you weren't allowed to let the paint fumes into free air.
Is there any truth in that?

I have painted a car in acrylic, and I painted my bike in 2k - both in a garage. I was considering doing my mustang myself too, but in my new neighbourhood, I don't think it would go down too well.
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Offline soc123_au

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« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2009, 09:14:28 am »
Spraybooths are a legal requirement. In NSW anyway, not sure on other states. Waterfloor is not mandatory & is becoming less popular as the costs of disposing of the water is a killer. We converted our booth back to dry floor a few years ago. The point I was trying to make about a spraybooth is no safer health wise for the painter weather they are spraying in a booth or outside. The important thing is the correct mask. The gas filter we use is
Gas filter Part# A15XSR217
I had never heard that it is no good for 2K & have been using it for years. Will definatly be making further inquiries on this one.

Offline 67TTCoupe

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« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2009, 09:46:03 am »
thats the same one i use sco.

Gas filter Part# A15XSR217

bought a new one recently and have specificaly asked if there is anything better out there for 2pk.thats what he given me. also thats what majority of spray shops use in SA.

but like u im going to recheck. someones head is coming off if false.

as for filters etc for spray booths. i think if u painting 8hrs a day 5-6days a week u be poluting a fair bit.

lets say a car every 2yrs in your backyard i dont think u make an impact.

though having good neighbours does help. ive been lucky. lol I do odd touch up job for them for free and they never bother me :(

but i paint a whole car maybe once a year and partiar repairs resprays maybe 2 or 3 times a year. its not a bussiness.

if was so illegal they would require your ABN and bussiness liscence before they sell it to you. which is not the case at the moment. ;}

Offline shaunp

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« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2009, 10:04:19 am »
Quote
Originally posted by rocket
Quote
Originally posted by mjb0015
Well mine is being painted with Acrylic, I am a bit worried now about the result, especially after reading what all you guys have said. Even more worried as the car was 2K before and my painter said acrylic will look great, should have gone with my instincts @#*#.

mjb


mjb, i agree with your painter - especially due to the cold weather in Adelaide.

I am having a debate with our painter right now about it. He wants to use a protec paint called 706? as the base, and then an Acrylic clear over the top of it.

We do not have a booth/oven so the cold weather means the 2 pak will take a long time to flash off and may result in runs.
Also, upon close inspection of the last car he painted - little dimples in a couple of panels which i believe is solvent pop.

Acrylic can be painted in cold weather ( i once painted an XF Falcon at night in 8 degrees temperatures and it buffed up just fine ).

The Stang that i recently painted had no solvent pop and no runs. I used plenty of clear in the final coats. After wetrubbing and polishing it looks a treat.
Acrylic may not be high tech - but the potential health issues of 2 pak worry me.

So tomorrow i am ordering Acrylic!!

Maybe the guys up north do not have to worry about the cold temps - but Adelaide is bloody cold this time of year.

If you need some tips on how to keep the Acrylic looking great - check out the Detail Paradise Forum.

Rocket.

That's what fast hardner and reducer is for, to speed it up, you will find most 2k syetems will have at least 3 speeds some even have ultra fast reducers,  Acrylic is likely to blush in cold / humid condictions if you wet it up to get so you don't need to rub it too much. I've had acrylic blush in Brisabne, in winter and summer, and used to use retarder as a result. This leads to other issues, the slower acrylic drys the more likely it is to pull up some repairs etc, due to the solvents in the colour melting the primer. Using fast in 2k will often make it quciker than acrylic. My experience with blokes saying don't use 2k is because they are scared to use it, for all of the reason listed in this tread, hard to touch up, you get runs, you get big chips, in real terms it's not an issue.

706 is Protec's base coat to use with 2K clear, which from memory is 606. They make Acrylic as well. They also make a couple of high speed clears, as do most other brands.

Offline 67TTCoupe

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« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2009, 01:23:08 pm »
Shaunp could agree more with your comment:

" My experience with blokes saying don't use 2k is because they are scared to use it, for all of the reason listed in this tread, hard to touch up, you get runs, you get big chips, in real terms it's not an issue."


to me its so much easier, quicker and everytime lot better result..... not to say the paint is lot cheaper to buy as it used by crash repairers all the time.






Offline mach70

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« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2009, 02:38:46 pm »
Getting my hands on the entire Sundstrom Catalogue. Thanks Dad.

Will revise tonight and advise.

Offline shaunp

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« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2009, 03:27:31 pm »
Web site is pretty vague, it says the one everyone uses is for organic vapor, and spray. the hardner is organic isocyanate. they test them it looks like with carbon tetrachorlide which is bad stuff.

They have one that does hydrogen cyanide!

Offline hybrid

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« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2009, 07:50:04 pm »
I might just hire a booth and paint mine myself then in 2k.

I think a mate of my dads will either let me use his booth, or hire it to me very cheap.
- Stupid questions are better than stupid mistakes.
- Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away, barefoot, and you've got his shoes.

Offline mach70

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« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2009, 08:22:48 pm »
Ok Here goes.

Both MSA and Sundstrom have nothing in their filter range suitable for isocynates. The advice from both is a Fresh Air Fed Hood.


Offline mach70

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« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2009, 08:33:55 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by soc123_au
 The important thing is the correct mask. The gas filter we use is
Gas filter Part# A15XSR217
I had never heard that it is no good for 2K & have been using it for years. Will definatly be making further inquiries on this one.


Form the Sundstrom Product Leaflet.

The SR 217 Filter is a Class A1
"Gas Filter 217 is a Class A1 filter that provides protection against vapour from organic substances whose boiling point exceeds +65 Deg C."

"Capacity: In tests with 1,000 ppm carbon tetrachloride at 30 l/min, the filter lasts for 90 - 110 min. (Standards requirements are 80 min.)
The Filter absorbs approximately 20 -25 g carbon tetrachloride (Standard Requirements: 15.4g)"

In the Chemical vs Filter listed there are no isocynates in the list.

For those that already have a Sundstrom half face mask you can get a SR 307 Compressed Air Attachment. Not sure of cost. This along with the appropriate filters on your compressor will do.

As I have indicated before its like smoking some can smoke for life and die at 90+ others are dead at 40.

Its your choice. I know what mine would be.

Shawn

Offline 67TTCoupe

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« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2009, 08:41:48 pm »
ok someones head is going on the choping board on saturday when i revisit them about filters. :[

Offline mach70

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« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2009, 08:52:10 pm »
The problem I have found is that the paint places really have no idea when it comes to the "safety" of the user from the paints.

There are some 2K paints that are isocynate free - or so I have heard. Cant confirm just an industry rumour.

Think of the relationship you have with parts suppliers - I'm sure for many of us we are on first name basis with the staff there. Question how many of us have the same relationship with a dedicated safety supplier? Do you even know where one is in your local area?

You only get 1 life - Protect it - if not for yourself for your loved ones.


Offline mach70

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« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2009, 08:55:15 pm »
Web site references

Sundstrom - www.sea.com.au

MSA - www.msa.net.au


Offline mach70

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« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2009, 08:58:27 pm »

Offline jonn

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« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2009, 09:08:42 pm »
HiChem Industries have a 2 pack  Isocyanate free clear.

Does anyone have any experience with this product/system?

Offline shaunp

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« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2009, 09:49:39 am »
Jon I don't know what it is but I wouldn't bother with it. You've got your car back to a shell, and spent hours on repairs don't skimp on materials, in the scheme of things even Glasurit is cheap compared to the labour in fixing an old car. Have look at Lou's 66vert on the members page this car was done properly, 14 years ago and it looks like it was painted last year, this car realy turns heads but it's a dead stock C code vert, with nice wheels, nice paint and body work, I think the engine got no more than a set of rings. Paint and body are the single most important things to get right on a resto, the rest of the stuff just bolts on, you can change an engine in an afternoon, but if the paint plays up your going back to steel again. Everyone should forget about quick engines and gold plated steering racks get the paint right first, the rest is easy you just bolt it in. And don't think acrylic won't do you any harm either, there are plenty of old painters out there that can't breath, from spraying NC and Acrylic for years don't worry about that. If your sensible with 2K you'll be fine considering you'll only be doing one job. Ventilation is the key.

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« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2009, 10:01:12 am »
Quote
Originally posted by shaunp
Jon I don't know what it is but I wouldn't bother with it. You've got your car back to a shell, and spent hours on repairs don't skimp on materials, in the scheme of things even Glasurit is cheap compared to the labour in fixing an old car. Have look at Lou's 66vert on the members page this car was done properly, 14 years ago and it looks like it was painted last year, this car realy turns heads but it's a dead stock C code vert, with nice wheels, nice paint and body work, I think the engine got no more than a set of rings. Paint and body are the single most important things to get right on a resto, the rest of the stuff just bolts on, you can change an engine in an afternoon, but if the paint plays up your going back to steel again. Everyone should forget about quick engines and gold plated steering racks get the paint right first, the rest is easy you just bolt it in.  


Thankyou Shaunp, exactly what I tell my clients. Get the basics right, the rest is easy.

Offline soc123_au

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« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2009, 10:41:37 am »
Quote
Originally posted by shaunp
Jon I don't know what it is but I wouldn't bother with it. You've got your car back to a shell, and spent hours on repairs don't skimp on materials, in the scheme of things even Glasurit is cheap compared to the labour in fixing an old car. Have look at Lou's 66vert on the members page this car was done properly, 14 years ago and it looks like it was painted last year, this car realy turns heads but it's a dead stock C code vert, with nice wheels, nice paint and body work, I think the engine got no more than a set of rings. Paint and body are the single most important things to get right on a resto, the rest of the stuff just bolts on, you can change an engine in an afternoon, but if the paint plays up your going back to steel again. Everyone should forget about quick engines and gold plated steering racks get the paint right first, the rest is easy you just bolt it in. And don't think acrylic won't do you any harm either, there are plenty of old painters out there that can't breath, from spraying NC and Acrylic for years don't worry about that. If your sensible with 2K you'll be fine considering you'll only be doing one job. Ventilation is the key.


Couldnt of said it any better

Offline 67TTCoupe

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« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2009, 10:43:13 am »
im gona go through my cans of paint and clear / primer.

i only do once in a blue moon a complete paintjob. do have reasonable ventilation.

i did notice when i use acrylic and when i go back to the workshop after 2hrs the fumes still bite me quite a bit and i have to get the mask. not so with the 2pk unless its a silent killer.

though dont want to cark it just yet im only 32. lot more cars need fixing and playing with before im ready to kick the bucket.

im pretty good with the supplier of all the safety and paint equipment. same joint LOL....

so im sure he be  looking after me.  but to be certain need to check what in the paints.


Offline soc123_au

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« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2009, 11:40:33 am »
Probably a good rule to go by is if you wouldnt drink it you probably shouldnt breath it in. Icosyanate free hardeners will still censored A you up, if it makes paint go hard it shouldnt be in your lungs. Acrylic, Air Dry Enamel & NC will also screw you up big time if you breath it in, as a young stupid apprentice I breathed in plenty of acrylic & I dont think it did me any good. Bottom line when choosing paints take into condideration you MUST wear a mask & have the best ventilation possible with ANY paint. Choose the paint that will work best for your project & if that project is a car then 2k is the best choice.

Offline shaunp

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« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2009, 12:32:46 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by soc123_au
 as a young stupid apprentice I breathed in plenty of acrylic & I dont think it did me any good.  


I reckon it cured my hay fever though:( hardly ever got it afterwards.

Offline mach70

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« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2009, 12:33:32 pm »
Ventilation really has :[ all to do with it.

Some figures I got this morning.

Spray painting creates fumes this is the killer for the filters.

Some Filters can handle 0.00005 ppm of isocynates.

The fumes can contain as much as 0.05 ppm

Thats 1000 times what they are capable of handling which is why they do not rate them for isocynates.






Offline shaunp

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« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2009, 12:44:18 pm »
I would have thought it has every thing to do with it, if you in a room  full of over spray, or a room with a forced ventilation system where there is hardly any fumes it would have to be different.

Offline 67TTCoupe

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« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2009, 03:24:28 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by shaunp
Quote
Originally posted by soc123_au
 as a young stupid apprentice I breathed in plenty of acrylic & I dont think it did me any good.  


I reckon it cured my hay fever though:( hardly ever got it afterwards.


funny u should say that i think same case with me. LOL