Do you have to degree a new cam ?

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Author Topic: Do you have to degree a new cam ?  (Read 489634 times)

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1625 on: May 17, 2016, 05:42:03 pm »
Its not big dollars . like i said, it's $25.00.

 :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


If history is correct we can add another 0 or two to the end of that figure..  :thumb:  :lol:


I'll end up with a whole new clutch assembly and rebuilt gear box by the end of it..  :lmao:

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1626 on: May 17, 2016, 05:47:55 pm »
Yeah it's a close ratio top loader.
It hasn't got stuck in reverse before like this, only happened a couple of times now.

i have had them get stick or jamb between gear numerous times and it has always been caused by a dirty shifter . they get grime between the plates so when you shift it, the increased friction moves the plate for another gear . take it apart and grease it or spray a ton of w40 in it from the top and shift t a lot to try and work any grime out.

also, it wont shift right until you fix the clutch.  :thumb:

 :therethere:


Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1627 on: May 17, 2016, 05:49:59 pm »
i have had them get stick or jamb between gear numerous times and it has always been caused by a dirty shifter . they get grime between the plates so when you shift it, the increased friction moves the plate for another gear . take it apart and grease it or spray a ton of w40 in it from the top and shift t a lot to try and work any grime out.

also, it wont shift right until you fix the clutch.  :thumb:

 :therethere:

I was about to ask could there be an issue with the linkage(s) being loose, dirt etc..

Aside from the obvious leak

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1628 on: May 17, 2016, 05:53:38 pm »
I was about to ask could there be an issue with the linkage(s) being loose, dirt etc..

Aside from the obvious leak

you could have had the trans out by now for all the time you spent asking about it.   :thud:

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1629 on: May 17, 2016, 05:55:55 pm »
Common problem with top loader shifters ,yes clean and lube . Its not the box that jams its the shifter linkages . Even my 70 Mach 1 does it sometimes coming out of reverse .

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1630 on: May 17, 2016, 05:57:07 pm »
Hmm I wonder what gear oil it has in it . Not the problem just a question .

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1631 on: May 17, 2016, 06:26:35 pm »
Hmm I wonder what gear oil it has in it . Not the problem just a question .
wel judging by the quality of the other work that has been  done its probably 10w30 engine oil.

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1632 on: May 18, 2016, 08:58:08 am »
.
Fitzy, I'm still working on this . I will finish it later today.


THROW OUT BEARING REPAIR AND TRANS FLUID CHANGE

Ok, the following is just so you know whats involved in fixing the bearing . It looks like a big ordeal because the list is long but it is actually pretty easy and even you can do it alone in less than 8 hours.

THINGS TO GET

Order bearing seal kit p/n 62-905.
Get four jack stands from Super cheap . Cheap ones are fine . Keep the receipt and return them afterwards.
Get trans adapter for your floor jack.
Get second floor jack . The stock Mustang screw type will work or a basic post jack.
Get a bolt the same od and thread as the one holding the line to the master cylinder and get a fiber or plastic washer for it.
Two bottles of 75w-90 or 80w-90 GL4 trans fluid . If you are racing it, use 80w-140 . It will be slightly stiff to shift until the oil gets warm . You can use this on the street also . Do NOT use a bottle that says GL4/GL5 on it . It must only say GL4.
A slab of FOSTERS LAGER, Australians favorite weed killer!


HERE'S THE FUN PART

Disconnect positive battery cable.

Apply your crappy parking brake.

Put several layers of news paper on the floor under the master cylinder and trans or use a drip pan.

Put trans in first gear.

Remove screws from shifter boot then pull the boot all the way up to the T handle.

Remove the two bolts at the base of the shifter and remove shifter.

Open hood/bonnet then remove the two top bell housing bolts . Don't scratch the car with the buttons on your pants.

Grab the bolt and washer you bought for the clutch master cylinder.

Remove the bolt securing the line to the clutch master cylinder and move line and install the blot and washer you bought . This sort of takes three hands almost.

Put the end of the line in a shallow pan under the car so the fluid can drain out of it.

Loosen rear wheel nuts around 1/16 th of a turn.

Jack the rear up by the center of the diff.

Put a jack on each side of the axle near the wheels and use lowest jack position.

Jack the front of car up by the cross member under the engine.

Put a jack on each side of the front frame rail and use lowest jack position.

If the car is not high enough, raise it up until it is.

Set the car up so the rear is around 30 to 40 mm higher than the front.

Remove the rear wheels.

Put the car in neutral and remove the parking brake so the rear wheels can turn.

Drain the trans.

Remove the bolt holding the speedo cable in.

Pull on the cable to remove it . You may have to wiggle it slightly because it has an O ring on it.

Remove the nuts and U bolts on the U joints . You can rotate the driveshaft by hand to get access to them.

Rotate the driveshaft until the U joints in the differential yoke are horizontal to the ground.

Pinch the U joint caps together then push the driveshaft forward 25 mm then lower the shaft onto the ground.

If the shaft will not move forward, pinch the U joint caps then pry them out of the yoke with a long screwdriver.

Once the end of the shaft is on the ground, wrap tape around he U joint and caps so they do not fall off and spill all their tiny needle bearings on the ground.

Raise the end of the shaft up around 12 inches then pull it out of the trans . You may have to yank on it fairly hard.

Hopefully your exhaust is not in the way of removing the trans.

Loosen the 4 bolts that hold the trans to the bell housing by 1/16 of a turn only . They should still be slightly snug when you are through.

Remove the nuts that hold the trans to the cross mount.

Remove the nuts from the long bolts that hold the mount to the body.

Place a 6" long 2 x 4 on a jack so it runs from side to side of the car.

Raise the jack until the 2 x 4 contacts the rear of the oil pan right next to the bell housing.

Once the 2 x 4 hits the oil pan, raise the pan around 5 mm.

Remove long bolts that hold trans mount to body then remove mount.

Lower jack under oil pan until the end of the trans drops exactly 3 inches.

Remove positive cable from new Chinese starter motor.

Remove new Chinese starter motor.

Stick a screw driver in the access hole in the side of the bell housing and try to move the bearing forward and rearward . You are looking for around 2 to 4 mm of movement . If there is no movement, you need to adjust the free play . See notes below.

Put the trans jack under the trans long ways so it can roll from the front to the rear of the car and point the handle towards the differential.

Raise jack until it is almost touching the trans then adjust the brackets accordingly so they all contact the trans.

Raise jack just a tiny bit so the brackets apply very slight pressure on the trans.

Remove the 4 bolts that hold the trans to the bell housing.

Pull the trans rearward until it clears the bell housing then lower it and leave it on the jack and just pull it rearward so you have more room.

Remove remaining bell housing bolts.

Pry bell housing off.

Disassemble bearing per video below and install new seals . If the bearing needs to be removed to adjust the free play, you can disassemble it after you remove it from the housing.

ADJUSTING BEARING FREE PLAY

The Tilton has a threaded sleeve . There may be a set screw pushing against the sleeve that you need to loosen first . Place the bearing so the sleeve is facing you . If the bearing had zero free play, turn the sleeve clockwise one full turn.


INSTALLING TRANS FLUID

Put some newspaper or paper towels under the trans . Make sure drain plug is tight . Remove the fill plug . Put the oil in . Fill it until it runs out of the ole and all over the trans and onto the floor . Reinstall plug and make it pretty tight.

The oil is thick so it pours slowly . You can put some hot water in a pan then put the bottles in it for 5 minutes to thin the oil some.


REMOVING THOSE POS WEIGHTS FROM THE FLYWHEEL

Put tape over the opening in the center of the clutch.

Cut the wire after every three weights with big wire cutters.

Remove the wire from a set of weights with small vice grips or needle nose pliers.

Remove the three weights.

Continue this process until all these pos are off.

Remove the tape.


EFFECTS OF AIR IN A HYDRAULIC CLUTCH SYSTEM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bngJkM_vkUE


HOW TO INSTALL NEW SEALS IN BEARING

Yours will be most similar to the second one shown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXfYMz7Vm30


REASSEMBLY

By more beer.

Put it back together.



.










 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 01:25:48 pm by barnett468 »

Offline GEOFF289

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1633 on: May 18, 2016, 10:27:54 am »


ADJUSTING BEARING FREE PLAY

The Tilton has a threaded sleeve . There may be a set screw pushing against the sleeve that you need to loosen first . Place the bearing so the sleeve is facing you . If the bearing had zero free play, turn the sleeve clockwise one full turn.



Bearing free play should be 0.125" measured by subtracting that from the distance from the mounting face of the bell housing to the clutch springs and then setting the bearing that distance from the mounting face of the trans using the threaded fitting. See http://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/uploads/98-1110-6000-Series-HRB-V2.pdf


Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1634 on: May 18, 2016, 10:34:41 am »
Dear god, this is going to be another 100 pages.

Strap yourself in folks..  :lmao:

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1635 on: May 18, 2016, 10:47:47 am »
Bearing free play should be 0.125" measured by subtracting that from the distance from the mounting face of the bell housing to the clutch springs and then setting the bearing that distance from the mounting face of the trans using the threaded fitting. See http://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/uploads/98-1110-6000-Series-HRB-V2.pdf

Thanks for the info and the link but I know all that, and unfortunately, he is not able to do that which is why I told him to do it another way . I am also not finished with my post and I will add more info later.

The thread pitch on the sleeve is 18 tpi, so if he has zero freeplay or close to it, turning it out will increase it by .055" . Since it has been working fine with the existing setting, I don't want to vary too much from that because he may not like it and then he will not be very happy with me.

One thing some people may not be aware of is that Fitzy has basically zero experience doing any of these things, and I mean nearly zero, therefore, I am trying to simplify things as much as possible for him, and trying to measure the distances without the proper tools while laying on his back under the car with very little room and no previous experience doing this just ain't gonna happen.

He will also tell us approximately how much freeplay it has if any, when he gets to it and we can offer suggestions on what to do at that point.
.


« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 11:02:14 am by barnett468 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1636 on: May 18, 2016, 11:04:37 am »
Dear god, this is going to be another 100 pages.

Strap yourself in folks..  :lmao:

Quit whining, you are only on page 66 so far.  :lmao:

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1637 on: May 18, 2016, 11:25:58 am »
.
Hey Fitzy, here's a live action video of how your bearing would work if it actually did work.  :lmao:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMq1NPKQ71U

Offline GEOFF289

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1638 on: May 18, 2016, 11:47:04 am »
Thanks for the info and the link but I know all that

One thing some people may not be aware of is that Fitzy has basically zero experience doing any of these things, and I mean nearly zero, therefore, I am trying to simplify things as much as possible for him, and trying to measure the distances without the proper tools while laying on his back under the car with very little room and no previous experience doing this just ain't gonna happen.


I'm sure you do know all that but I reckon he has done an awesome job so far. I set mine up according to the Tilton instructions and one thing I am 100% certain about is that if I can do it our friend Fitzy can.

The video at "week nineteen" here http://www.autorestomod.com/season-2-2011-1-28.html shows how the measurement can be undertaken. Different bearing and trans and the adjustment mechanism is shims rather than the threaded sleeve the Tilton has but the measurement process is the same. You only need to watch from about the 10 minute mark.

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1639 on: May 18, 2016, 12:03:14 pm »
I'm sure you do know all that but I reckon he has done an awesome job so far. I set mine up according to the Tilton instructions and one thing I am 100% certain about is that if I can do it our friend Fitzy can.

The video at "week nineteen" here http://www.autorestomod.com/season-2-2011-1-28.html shows how the measurement can be undertaken. Different bearing and trans and the adjustment mechanism is shims rather than the threaded sleeve the Tilton has but the measurement process is the same. You only need to watch from about the 10 minute mark.

Thanks for the link.

Yes, considering his complete lack of experience, he has done the nearly impossible, especially if you consider all the extremely technical things I had him do also, like setting up the dist gear and staking the dist shaft so the gear was a press fit and checking the push rod length so I could determine what length rod he needed and setting the fuel mix screws on his Webers so the fkn thing would idle and setting the timing by ear . This is all fairly high end stuff that only pros do.

I also had him send me numerous photos and videos to my pm box to get all this done until I said, yes, that is now correct, and he has diligently persevered even though there were times he was extremely discouraged, like after installing the intake and having it leak a massive amount of water into his brand new $140.00 worth of PENNRITE racing oi that I had him buy.  :lmao: The first indication that the oil had water in it was when the oil pressure kept dropping after the engine was warmed up which I could see in the xlnt videos he sent me.  :thumb:

Anyway, now that his engine finally runs and idles, and according to him now sounds much nastier than the previous cam and pulls much harder, his fkng clutch bearing starts fkng up, so he is quite understandably pissed off and discouraged, so I'm actually a little hesitant to have him do more than is really necessary for fear he might want to kill me.

This being said, I may have him by a set of long feeler gauges and check the clearance with the bell housing on after those stupid pressure plate weights are out of the way . This way, it will only take 5 minutes to take it back apart and readjust it, but I need to know if he has an adjustable rod on the master so he change change his pedal height if necessary . It is supposed to but after everything else, who the heck knows.

.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 12:26:44 pm by barnett468 »

Offline GEOFF289

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1640 on: May 19, 2016, 12:37:54 pm »


This being said, I may have him by a set of long feeler gauges and check the clearance with the bell housing on after those stupid pressure plate weights are out of the way . This way, it will only take 5 minutes to take it back apart and readjust it, but I need to know if he has an adjustable rod on the master so he change change his pedal height if necessary . It is supposed to but after everything else, who the heck knows.

.

Pedal height shouldn't change should it? These bearings are like a brake piston and only retract as far as they are pushed. Adjusting the free play with the threaded sleeve wouldn't change the extension or otherwise of the bearing. You do have to set up a pedal stop or something so you don't over extend the bearing.

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1641 on: May 19, 2016, 12:51:09 pm »
Pedal height shouldn't change should it? These bearings are like a brake piston and only retract as far as they are pushed. Adjusting the free play with the threaded sleeve wouldn't change the extension or otherwise of the bearing. You do have to set up a pedal stop or something so you don't over extend the bearing.

yes, it actually can change it a little because of the way they work, but if one installs a 2 lb residual valve in the line, it will help insure it remains the same.

the residual valves will also reduce pedal travel on a disc brake system . i know a guy running 12 lb valves on his 130 mph road race car.
.

 

« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 12:55:29 pm by barnett468 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1642 on: May 20, 2016, 01:54:12 pm »
Thought i'd have a breather and give it a quick clean today, being outside the whole time it hasn't been washed in nearly 6 months and was in desperate need of a clean. Went through a whole clay bar, it was shocking.  :thud: :lol:

Didn't have time to go all out with the DA etc so just a quick hit with the Megs and it still came up pretty good.

 

Offline Dwayne

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1643 on: May 20, 2016, 01:55:51 pm »
Amazing how much difference a clay bar can make.

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1644 on: May 20, 2016, 02:06:35 pm »
Thought i'd have a breather and give it a quick clean today, being outside the whole time it hasn't been washed in nearly 6 months and was in desperate need of a clean. Went through a whole clay bar, it was shocking.  :thud: :lol:

Didn't have time to go all out with the DA etc so just a quick hit with the Megs and it still came up pretty good.

nice! so how did it work on the bent rear bumper?  :lmao:

Offline shaunp

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1645 on: May 20, 2016, 06:26:00 pm »
The oil you want is Valvoline Dura gear 75/80 GL4 of some thing like Castrol VMX 80, Penrite do a couple of excelant MTF oils as well. Trans gear/Progear  work well

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=4&id_products=375

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1646 on: May 21, 2016, 09:07:30 am »
Interesting, i was told not to use synthetic oil.

Something about the box needing a certain level of friction and if its being shifted quick in higher horsepower applications and track work synthetic doesn't work so well.

 :shrug:

Offline shaunp

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1647 on: May 21, 2016, 12:07:58 pm »
Then use Penrite Trans gear not Progear The Valoline dura gear is fine I ran it in my Landrover disc for years and they are know for poor cold gear shifts. Alot of people are scared of synth oils for no reason other then they dont understand or want to pay the extra.

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1648 on: May 21, 2016, 02:54:22 pm »
Then use Penrite Trans gear not Progear The Valoline dura gear is fine I ran it in my Landrover disc for years and they are know for poor cold gear shifts. Alot of people are scared of synth oils for no reason other then they dont understand or want to pay the extra.

You mean your Land Rover actually retained all its fluids ?  :lol:

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1649 on: May 21, 2016, 02:55:36 pm »
Zero motivation for this clutch/trans job...

Have full blown man flu...  :thud: