Engine Mods 101 - Need some advice

[BAC]

Hi guys,
I'm not sure I even want to tackle this yet, but I am curious as to the general opinions here on the best 'bang for buck' upgrades to a stock-ish 351W motor.

Sorry to say I know not very much about the engine in my '69 Mach 1 and I'm new to V8s in general (grew up with 4cyl turbos) so please be tolerant of my ignorance!  Here's what I do know:

- started out life as a 2 barrel 'H' code 351 Windsor
- still has the original numbers matching block from 1969
- original carby has been replaced by a generic Holley 4 barrel (marked 6104-3 on the side)
- original 2V intake manifold has been replaced by a 4V 'Ford Racing' one (no markings that I can see)
- rocker covers are also branded 'Ford Racing'
- pretty sure  it's still running tappets as you get that clack-clack-clack sound from the top end at idle
- full length Hedman headers
- stock FMX auto tranny
- 3.00 diff ratio

That's about all I know.  No idea if the heads are original, there's no obvious markings that I can see and they are painted the same Ford blue colour as the block. Not really keen to pull too much apart at the moment to find out more as I'm afraid I might bugger something up.

What I'd like is some feedback on the least expensive (parts and labour) mods I could make to improve the motor a little.  Not after big power, maybe just a bit more torque at cruising RPMs.  So where to start - would roller rockers be a worthwhile upgrade?  Should I be looking at a new set of heads - AFR/Trickflow/something else?  What model/size and rough cost?  How much of this would be DIY-able for someone with modest mechanical skills?

Should also mention I'd rather not replace the carby which will limit my choices, but hopefully there may still be something useful that could be done.

[shaunp]

The cheapest Good Heads you can get will be Dart Pro 1 about $1800  VPW will have them locally, Id fit a set of Comp cam Gold rockers if you have tall covers, if low covers Scorpion endurance rockers and a small roller cam shaft. If you go too large on the cam you'll need to swap the torque converter and go with a lower diff.

[barnett468]

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one mild - moderate performance budget option is the following.

eddy e street heads with 2.02 intake valve

these are the 1.90 valve heads . . the 2.02 are the same price . . $1350.00 asd . . you will need to check the piston to valve clearance with the 2.02 heads.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ED5023-Edelbrock-E-Street-Cylinder-Head-Aluminum-Ford-Windsor-289-302-351-/201106263142?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item2ed2de0c66

comp xe262h cam

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/COMP-CAMS-CO12-238-2-Xtreme-Energy-Hydraulic-Camshaft-XE262H-Suit-Small-/291146555207?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item43c9afdf47

1.65 rocker ratio with this cam.

crane lifters.

chromoly push rods

use your intake

mill heads if necessary to get around 9.5 - 9.7 static compression for premium gas.

650 slayer vacuum secondary quick fuel carb or determine what yours is . . look for numbers on the front of the choke horn.

set distributor mechanical advance curve

if your crank damper rubber looks wasted, or if you plan to flog the engine, i would buy a new one . . pioneer or durabond.

i would buy a new true roller timing chain since you're already in there.

grab your water pump shaft and try to wiggle it . . if it moves, the bearings are worn . . i would consider a new one . . bosch or airtex are budget repos.

[GLENN 70]

It depends what you want really . The H code was low on HP and low comp and 2 barrel carby .  Yours has been upgraded with the 4 B Holley but what side is it? ,the intake might be a dual plain ? ,might be a good idea to find some numbers or lift the carby off to make sure .Dizzy ? . A set of heads is your best option at this stage but a cam upgrade is next but a decent one that will give it some go but then a high stall to match . I also own a 351w slug ,I up graded  to a 670 Holley and a edelbrock RPM intake only because that's what I had lying around and it goes ok but only ok . So work out what carby you have ,what intake it is ,a set of heads nice cam and a high stall and it will go a lot better . It only takes money  .

[boofhead]

When considering cost and relatively simple upgrade then I also vote for a set of E Heads which on Ebay are around $1400 (as shown above). Leave the stock cam and go with a set of 1.7 rockers. Set of headers and finally a change of rear gear  (at least 3.25 : 1). You will notice the performance change. This leaves you with optional phase 2 which would be a cam change.


A warning though - once you start down this road you start to want more performance so more phases are added into the mix over time.
 

[GLENN 70]

Going from 3.00 to 3.25 diff ratio probably isn't worth it ,if it was 2.75 to 3.25 sure . What size are the back wheels and tyres .  Each ratio down will add around 250 rpm in top gear at hwy cruising . So if you fit a 3.5 ratio your revs will go up 500 rpm .  3.25 ratio is a good all round ratio .

[barnett468]

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yes good point from boofhead on the rear gears . . i was just assuming you didnt want to change them but heres the deal, if you want quicker acceleration and have llimited funds, your best bang for your buck is to change the rear gear ratio instead of doing the other things . . if you want a big increase in acceleration and dont mind the engine turning maybe 400 more rpm at highway speed then i would install 3.40 gears . . now, your tires might spin if you nail it off the line so if you dont want that to happen, you need a posi.

going from 3.00 to 3.40 will feel like taking off in one lower gear or like adding 50 hp.

gears and bearings etc might be around 400.00 asd but a pro needs to change them which might be 1,000.00 asd?

[BAC]

Hey guys, thanks for all the suggestions so far. 

What I'm hearing is you can't get something for nothing and to make any noticeable improvement to how the car feels it looks like I'd need to spend around  $3-5K.  As I have a substantial (at least for me) amount of money tied up in the car already, tipping another $5K in at this stage is not really an option.

However, it's all good food for thought and I like the out of the box thinking of changing the diff ratio, but the $1K labour cost would put me off.  I guess I was hoping just a set of heads might make a real difference, but it sounds like there needs to be a fair number of supporting mods that I would need as well.

I know if I start messing around with pulling the block down and going through everything that needs a refresh then I will be looking at a black hole that I keep throwing money into which is not where I want to be.  It would have been nice to just have the ability to spin the wheels of the line when I want and have a little bit more roll-on acceleration, but it looks like that's just not do-able on a tight budget.

Someone asked what sort of dizzy I have - it's a Mallory combo electronic distributor/ignition unit.  Someone else asked if I had tall or short rocker covers - they are 7.5cm tall on the downhill side and 6.5cm tall on the uphill side, so hopefully that tells you what type they are.  To answer another question, wheels are 15 x 7 Magnum 500s with 215/70 BF Goodrich radials.  I will also try and get some more numbers off the carby to see if anyone knows a bit about it.

I'm pretty sure what the answer will be, but I take it all the cheap heads on Ebay are rubbish?

E.g. $1,090 + $200 extra for roller rockers:  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/151576610433

[GLENN 70]

There is no cheap  answer to more HP . Going down the gear ratio will make a difference but may affect your hwy cruising revs ,that's why I asked what wheels/ tyre size you run on the back . Doing the diff will cost about a grand all up not just the labour . Depending on the rear tyres you may be able to go to a 3.5 ratio which will make quite a difference all round .

[BAC]

There is no cheap  answer to more HP . Going down the gear ratio will make a difference but may affect your hwy cruising revs ,that's why I asked what wheels/ tyre size you run on the back . Doing the diff will cost about a grand all up not just the labour . Depending on the rear tyres you may be able to go to a 3.5 ratio which will make quite a difference all round .

Tyres are 215/70x15 but I have no idea how close that is to the factory spec rolling radius. 

Wouldn't changing the diff ratio from 3.0 to 3.5 put the speedo out by a fair margin?

[GLENN 70]

Changing the diff ratio will affect the speedo reading . 215/70x15 is quite a tall tyre and some where around 26 1/2 to 27 inches tall I recon . Are you sure your speedo is correct now , have you compared it to a GPS . Do you have a tachometer in the car ? . Also how do you know it has  a 3.00 ratio diff ? .

[barnett468]

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ok your on a tight budget and you want to spin the tires . . heres just a few of several options

buy 3.40 gears . . your engine does not turn enough rpm to use 3.50 gears . . changing gears is cheaper than changing heads . . if you do not change the gears, i would not spend a dime on anything else.

set the timing as i previously suggested., inaccurate timing can easily cost 20 horsepower.

if you have money left after the gears, i would buy 8 1.65 or 1.7 ratio rocker arms and stick them on the exhaust valves . . comp may have some steel, roller tipped ones.

do a compression test . . if its less than 140 psi, buy some .027" thick cometic head gaskets with the same size bore as your engine, then mill your heads to get a calculated static compression of around 9.5 and use premium gas.

if you do all the above, your car will haul a_s compared to how it currently is and all you spent was round 1500.00 asd.

yes, the cheapo aluminum heads on ehay are not great.

if you had forged pistons, you could add a 50 hp nitrous shot kit.

[boofhead]

Wouldn't changing the diff ratio from 3.0 to 3.5 put the speedo out by a fair margin?

Yes though a quick change to the gearbox speedo gear fixes the speedo reading.

[BAC]

Changing the diff ratio will affect the speedo reading . 215/70x15 is quite a tall tyre and some where around 26 1/2 to 27 inches tall I recon . Are you sure your speedo is correct now , have you compared it to a GPS . Do you have a tachometer in the car ? . Also how do you know it has  a 3.00 ratio diff ? .

Yep, overall wheel height is about 27" by my reckoning - what was the stock wheel/tyre combination when they rolled out of the Ford dealerships?  I've not compared my speedo to a GPS or similar - will have to put it under a speed check gantry on the freeway when I get a chance.  I don't know for sure that it still has a 3.00 diff, only that's what it had from the factory.  I guess there's no way of telling other than have someone crack the diff open?

buy 3.40 gears . . your engine does not turn enough rpm to use 3.50 gears . . changing gears is cheaper than changing heads . . if you do not change the gears, i would not spend a dime on anything else.

Point taken - anybody have a recommendation in SE Melb for an expert in the field?

set the timing as i previously suggested., inaccurate timing can easily cost 20 horsepower.

Sorry, must have missed the details on this one.  Is there an idiot's guide for checking/adjusting the timing on the Mallory electronic dizzy/ignition units somewhere?

if you have money left after the gears, i would buy 8 1.65 or 1.7 ratio rocker arms and stick them on the exhaust valves . . comp may have some steel, roller tipped ones.

do a compression test . . if its less than 140 psi, buy some .027" thick cometic head gaskets with the same size bore as your engine, then mill your heads to get a calculated static compression of around 9.5 and use premium gas.

Thanks, these are exactly the sort of suggestions I was after.  Any clues where to have this work done at a reasonable cost in SE Melb?

[barnett468]

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Ok heres an abbreviated version

Plug your dist vacuum advance.

On your crank damper, put a line of white out at 0, put 1 dot at 10 and 2 dots at 20, 3 dots at 30, 4 dots at 40 degrees btdc . . put a dot on the end of the timing pointer.

Loosen the distributor bolt ¼ turn

Note your idle timing.

With it warmed up and idling, advance the timing 4 degrees . . if it idles faster and is still smooth, it wants more idle timing than you had.

Reset idle timing to previous setting.

Rev engine to around 2000 rpm or 1/3rd throttle . . note timing

Advance timing 4 degrees . . if it runs faster and is still smooth, it wants more advance sooner than it previously had.

reset timing to previous setting.

rev the engine to nearly half throttle and note timing.

post results.

need to know your exact distributor model to tell you how to adjust it.

[barnett468]

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i only use the motive gears that are made in italy or us gear gears that are made in the us . . motive makes some gears in china . . these make noise . . i only use timken bearings . . some others are junk.

[barnett468]

jack the rear end up

rotate one wheel so the valve stem is pointing straight down or straight up . . step back and view it to be certain.

using white out, put a thick 25 mm long horizontal line on the drive shaft near the rear u joint that faces the wheel you will be turning.

spin one wheel . . if the other wheel spins nearly or exactly the same amount in the same direction you have a posi.

if you have a posi, rotate the wheel forward exactly 1 full turn while counting the revolutions of the drive shaft mark.

if it rotates EXACTLY 3 times, it is a 3.0 . . if it rotates just short of 3 times, it is 2.80.

if it is NOT a posi, drop one wheel on the ground and rotate the wheel 1 full turn and count the revolutions.

 

[barnett468]

Thanks, these are exactly the sort of suggestions I was after.  Any clues where to have this work done at a reasonable cost in SE Melb?

By you in your own garage. 

You "should" be able to save a boat load on the rear end by buying your own parts and pulling the center section yourself then just take the parts and center section in . . This is WAY easier than doing the heads.

If you have ever installed brake shoes, you can EASILY do this, we can tell you how . . It will take around 1 hour and 15 minutes to remove and around 3 cold, tasty, Fosters Lagers...STILL the best beer in Austrailia....mate! 

[scollist]

I don't know for sure that it still has a 3.00 diff, only that's what it had from the factory.  I guess there's no way of telling other than have someone crack the diff open?
Point taken - anybody have a recommendation in SE Melb for an expert in the field?

I haven't used him yet buT I have heard good reports about the Diff Doctor in Hampton Park.  Search on Google.

[BAC]

By you in your own garage. 

You guys are funny! 

Let's take a step back - I'm a 51yo male who spent a bit of time working on clapped out old cars in my youth 'cos I needed to keep the bloody things running and I couldn't afford to keep taking them up to the local mechanic.  Since those days I've been driving modern EFI cars with zero user tuning capability and just been doing my own oil and filter changes.  During that time I've lost, thrown out or given away most of my old tools to the point where I don't even own a set of axle stands any more.  Now the Mustang's here I plan to re-stock with the basics but you guys are going to have to be patient with me...

That said, I'm willing to have a go at most things as long as the online community here are willing to put up with my stupid questions and hold my hand.  However I do think machining the heads in my own garage is not going to be a possibility. 

Checking the timing and axle ratio are top priority on my list as soon as I acquire the necessary gear (off to Supercheap...)  With the distributor, I'm pretty sure it's this one:

http://mallory-ignition.com/ignition-electrical-and-wiring/distributors-and-components/dist-ford-351w-street-hei-wcoi.html

[barnett468]

.

You guys are funny! 

Yes...we are! 

You can remove the center section with a chinese or taiwan:

floor jack

jack stands

lug wrench

3/8" drive ratchet . . long handle preferred

6" or 10" extension

9/16" socket

7/16" combo wrench

vise grips for the brake springs
...and some cold, tasty, fosters lagers.

[barnett468]

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CYLINDER HEADS.

After removal, spray carb cleaner in one bank of ports then look at the valves to see if they are leaking . . Then do the same to the other side . . If they do not leak and you do not plan to rebuild them, then do the following.

After your heads are removed, look inside the exhaust port . . if you see a big lump like this, I would remove it with a dye grinder at ANY cost . . this is EASY to do . . its nearly impossible to screw this job up . . this lump is for air injection and it is cast into the valve guide and it restricts exhaust flow considerably . . simply make this section look like the intake port . . just leave around 6 mm of material around the hole for the valve.

install the valve covers and tape the intake port up before performing this job . . it will be far easier if you remove the exhaust valves first which is so easy, even a 5th grader can do it . . just rent a spring compressor tool.

you can install new valve guide seals while you are at it if yours are hard but if yours are hard then your heads might need rebuilding anyway.

if you have the heads rebuilt, you can get larger intake valves with undercut stems . . this will greatly increase intake flow.




...............................i would use this exact type of seal

...............


......................................not this type

[GLENN 70]

If your mustang came factory with 3.00 I would say it still has it .  You can jack the car up and check as Barnett said .  Or if it has a tachometer and you have a GPS you can sit on 100 Klms or 62 mph and then tell us what revs it's doing .  Your tyres are taller than factory by quite a bit so that will kill the performance off the line . 69 Mach 1s came with 14 inch rims  and the tyres were around 25 inches , some came with the magnum 500 rims if ordered and they were 15 inch and had around 26 inch tall tyres .every inch taller in a tyre is like going up one gear ratio ,so its like you now have 2.75 ratio gears .  It might pay to buy a complete centre with ford gears off e bay ,there is a guy that's sell them for around $450 complete . But it won't be a LSD but yours won't be now either I would say . Your diff may still have the tag on it ,it's on one of the bolts holding the centre in and it will have the ratio on it . You have to work out what ratio you want 1st .  Doing the change yourself is a bit of a mission if you haven't done it before .  It should take a diff shop less than 1.5 hrs no problems ,plus 2 .5 lt of oil .   

[BAC]

If your mustang came factory with 3.00 I would say it still has it .  You can jack the car up and check as Barnett said .  Or if it has a tachometer and you have a GPS you can sit on 100 Klms or 62 mph and then tell us what revs it's doing .

No tacho so will do the jack up option when I can.

Your tyres are taller than factory by quite a bit so that will kill the performance off the line . 69 Mach 1s came with 14 inch rims  and the tyres were around 25 inches , some came with the magnum 500 rims if ordered and they were 15 inch and had around 26 inch tall tyres .every inch taller in a tyre is like going up one gear ratio ,so its like you now have 2.75 ratio gears.

You are spot on - just checked Mach 1 specs online and they say 25.6" diameter with stock F70-14 tyres. Mine come in at 26.85" with the 215/70x15 tyres so the rolling radius is out by almost 5%, equating to an effective diff ratio of 2.86.  The tyres are pretty new and I won't be changing them anytime soon, so maybe I'll look into the diff a bit more. 

It might pay to buy a complete centre with ford gears off e bay ,there is a guy that's sell them for around $450 complete . But it won't be a LSD but yours won't be now either I would say . Your diff may still have the tag on it ,it's on one of the bolts holding the centre in and it will have the ratio on it . You have to work out what ratio you want 1st .  Doing the change yourself is a bit of a mission if you haven't done it before .  It should take a diff shop less than 1.5 hrs no problems ,plus 2 .5 lt of oil .   

Not worried about an LSD at this stage.  I suspect the diff has been reco'ed at some point as there is zero noise or leaks and it all looks very shiny from the outside.  I suspect the tag would be gone from whenever they cracked it open so I'll rely on doing the manual test when I have the axle stands. If it is currently 3.0, maybe I could get away with 3.50 gears as the effective ratio would only be 3.37 due to the tyres I'm running.

I'm a bit dubious about how easy it would be to change out the diff myself, especially when the advice comes from a Foster's drinker - it's hard to trust someone with such poor taste in beer...   

[barnett468]

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If it is currently 3.0, maybe I could get away with 3.50 gears as the effective ratio would only be 3.37 due to the tyres I'm running.

i would not do that myself BECAUSE...if you ever decide to get the correct or near correct size tires instead of the tractor tires you now have on it, you will be back in the same boat of spinning high rpms on a low rpm engine . . this is a bad idea for long high speed cruises but it will be fun whenever you accelerate . . this being said, if you do choose to keep the mud boggers on there, the 3.50's would be a decent choice...imo.

I'm a bit dubious about how easy it would be to change out the diff myself, especially when the advice comes from a Foster's drinker - it's hard to trust someone with such poor taste in beer...   

oh...i don't actually drink that cr_p myself, i just use it for cleaning parts or give it to party guests that i dont like.