Windsor or Cleveland?

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Offline JT_1994

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Windsor or Cleveland?
« on: February 18, 2012, 09:57:23 pm »
OK I'm sure I am about to open a can of worms but still....

I have been doing research on Windsors and Clevelands. So, what are the main differences between the two?
I don't mean physical differences I mean pros and cons of both, does one have distinct advantages over the other or are the two essentially the same?
I am thinking 302 or 351, 4BBL mild performance but nothing over the top...

:feedback:

Thanks,

JT
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Offline mert

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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 10:20:39 pm »
In general, assuming you are talking OEM not restomod:

Clevelands (335 family engines) weigh more

Windsors are easier to find parts for (more made), clevelands had a shorter production run (thus some of the mythology, harder to find so.....)

Cleveland canted heads have more "potential" for big horsepower (but the bottom end becomes suspect without tweaks to beef it up), but less availability of after market hipo parts (odd dichotomy)

The Windsor is in some ways a modified 302, the Cleveland a different animal with the canted heads.

Very different items.  

You will get advocates of each.

Ater market crate engines and alloy intakes/heads/etc do away with both in OEM form if HP/$ is your goal.

A Windsor bottom end with Celveland heads (Clevor) is a commonly mentioned mix for better performance/power...
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Offline JT_1994

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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 11:04:53 pm »
OK, so what your saying is a CLEVELAND has a weaker bottom end (structurally) or produces less power in the lower RPM range? or did I get that wrong?

and that WINDSORS are more common so parts are more readily available.. (for original parts) but I am not particularly concerned about keeping it a stock motor, so new alloy heads/ intakes and flat top or dish top pistons etc. I wouldn't be able to drive it with a V8 for a few years so I will have time to put a bit of cash into it every now and then for some new parts... so origionality isn't a big deal. (I appreciate seeing stock cars, but I don't think thats what I really want) I wouldn't mind building as much of the motor as I can myself because apart from learning about how it all works to make that V8 rumble we all love I would like to know I built it myself and didn't just pay someone to do it for me (even though there WILL be some jobs I won't be able to do myself at home such as boring/ honing etc.) but disassembly/ assembly and cleaning of what I can. When I get to start it for the first time it would be SO AWESOME!
As my car is a T-code it never had a V8 anyway... so like I said, originality is not a big deal. I am not really wanting EFI or anything particularly fancy... Just a decent V8 that I BUILT (mostly at least).

I had heard of windsor bottom end with clevo heads before (a BOSS motor I believe) but just how much work is needed to accomplish this, (and is it really worth the effort/ expense of having all the machine work done) have done quiet a bit of reading and am aware that the water / oiling passages are different and need to be milled to allow the clevo heads to fit but how bad is it?

I don't want it to produce "stupid" horses but I don't see the point in spending that much money on an engine if it won't "work well"... he he...:smile01:

Thanks for the feedback.

JT
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Offline Ash

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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 07:15:27 am »
I'd be heading in the same direction as many others now, simply as its been done and the amount of parts readily available is high.

Something like this, 302 roller block

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FORD-5-0L-302-V8-WINDSOR-ROLLER-CAM-MOTOR-XL-XM-XP-XY-XR8-HOTROD-EXPLORER-AU-/200713904203?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ebb7b204b

Buy a new 347 stroker kit, a good one and not a pro comp set. Also a new set of alloy heads and new intake to match.

Plenty of other guys on here have this and are very happy with the result. They could give plenty of good advise along the way

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Offline Tempest

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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 10:18:24 am »
In factory form, clevelands produce much more power but they can have oil supply problems due to how the oil system is designed. This can be fixed however and aftermarket parts are available.

Windsors, in factory form, are generally less powerful but have a better designed oiling system. Due to the 40 odd years of production you can get anthing you want for them aftermarket at a reasonable price and build them into great little motors.

I went like Ash mentioned, got a 5.0L roller block from an EF falcon and a 347 stroker kit and aluminium heads. makes 380rwhp, very happy.

Offline JT_1994

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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 10:42:20 am »
Quote from: Tempest link=topic=17171.msg171628#msg171628
In factory form, clevelands produce much more power but they can have oil supply problems due to how the oil system is designed. This can be fixed however and aftermarket parts are available.

Windsors, in factory form, are generally less powerful but have a better designed oiling system. Due to the 40 odd years of production you can get anthing you want for them aftermarket at a reasonable price and build them into great little motors.


What about in "mild" form?
so new alloy heads, intake, 4bbl carb, headers ignition and a little machine work (porting, C/R, cylinder boring etc.) and depending on how complete the motor I end up with is, new pistons and crank as well as a reasonable cam....

How big a deal are the oil passage issues of a Clevo? Is it a fairly easy fix?

What are peoples preferences one way or another (Clevo or Windsor) and reason for preferring one over the other.
Is it just you have a Windsor/Clevo and always have.
Or does one outperform the other?
Is one easier to get power out of for less $$$?

OR, am I imagining things and they are both pretty similar?
:feedback:


As far as a crate motor goes, most will be WAY out of my price range anyway, besides like I said, I'd rather build most of it myself...
JT_1994 aka "Nixon"

Offline JT_1994

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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 12:06:22 pm »
Quote from: Tempest link=topic=17171.msg171628#msg171628

I went like Ash mentioned, got a 5.0L roller block from an EF falcon and a 347 stroker kit and aluminium heads. makes 380rwhp, very happy.


Would there be any advantage to a stroker (other than more cubes) I have done a little research on stroker kits and they are quiet expensive... I am by no means expecting to be able to rebuild a complete, ready to install V8 for peanuts. However I have 4 years before I can even drive one  so I can take my time to save up and do it in increments at and make it a strong motor by the time I can drive it...

Are there any ISSUES with strokers?
The kits include everything necessary to install, but are there any modifications required to fit them?

any other suggestions would be appreciated... I would like to know as much as possible before making a decision...
thanks
JT_1994 aka "Nixon"

Offline 6T9rustang

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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 04:41:27 pm »
Stay away from the clevor engines. Its not worth the headache and $$$. A windsor with windsor heads will be the best bang for buck.

Offline Ash

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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 05:21:19 pm »
There's quite a few options on US ebay for stroker kits that aren't dear at all. It would just depend on choise of piston to which kit you go.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBF-FORD-SCAT-347-FORGED-ROTATING-ASSEMBLY-FT-30-/330608445978?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item4cf9cc8a1a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCAT-SB-FORD-347ci-STROKER-KIT-1-94165-FLAT-TOP-FORGED-/290345774296?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item4399f4ecd8

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCAT-SB-FORD-347ci-STROKER-ROTATING-KIT-DISH-PISTONS-/290201409382?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item43915a1766

Bang for buck, it isn't bad at all. Especially when a roller block is so cheap here at home.

Cams are cheap $150 or so. The rest of your big outlay will be in heads and headers.
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Offline JT_1994

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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 10:04:20 pm »
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M6010BOSS302/

how about something like this? anyone done something similar?
JT_1994 aka "Nixon"

Offline Mustangpaul

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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 10:51:51 am »
It may not bother you but I believe it is easier to remove spark plugs from a Windsor. As far as the heads go an engineer looked at my 302 and while he was there he told me to get 289 windsor heads for the 302 to boost compression. Things that matter if you are going to do a rebuild will include the thickness of the walls. That was effected by mould shift as well can be effected by corrosion of the block. I'm no expert but I do get expert advice when I need it. Good luck.
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Offline JT_1994

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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 04:46:49 pm »
Yeah, one thing I would do is get a set of alloy heads (have been reading about Edelbrock victors/ AFR) and get a reasonable C/R with the and flat top pistons... What are people running on their own cars. Mainly talking to small block owners but I'm interested to know what block/piston/head combinations people are running to get an idea what is out there... So if yo don't mind, please share what you have.
A stroker is looking to be an option with 351 clevelands being so expensive (generally) so what is involved in using a kit like one of the ones above? Surely the stroker kits don't simply bolt in... Is there alot of unnecessary expense in a stroker (ie. Machining) and what combos are "best" (best bang for your buck).

And if going down the path of a stroker which would be more suitable 302W, 351C, 351W? (go for more cubes to start with or are these strokers generally worse for wear)

Finally what about trans and gear ratios? If i am swapping to a 351 I might end up swapping to a 4 speed man. What are peoples thoughts here?

:feedback:

Thanks
JT_1994 aka "Nixon"

Offline Ash

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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 05:29:40 pm »
If you are changing gearboxes, I wouldn't go anything less then a 5 speed. T5's are easy to come by. You're going to need the whole set-up anyway, it wont cost you any more to get a 5 speed behind it. Having that 5th gear is a saviour for cruising higher speeds.
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Offline Daz 67GTA

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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 07:21:35 pm »
My 2 cents...I have had 351C's for 15 odd years.... Ford ran them in the XY - XE very nice motor, even is stock form they produce more bottom end torque than a Windsor.
The Cleveland was the "motor of choice" for American racers when it was in production in the states.

You will not have an issue with oiling, just run a quality oil pump. if you really want something with awesome power and torque and put the 4V heads on it.

I did not bother...I actually went and spoke with Mick Webb (he ended up building my current engine) who used to build the racing 351C's and he said not to bother with 4V heads unless you are building a "crazy" 351C and wish to rev the buggery out of it.  He even told me not to bother with fancy inlet manifolds, the stock ford Cleveland inlet manifold is great for a nice strong engine.
Best thing if you are going to build any engine is to get it balanced, nice cam and a good set of headers/exhaust.

I will be swapping the 289W for my 351C down the track..

Either way you should get it balanced, and if you want to spend the money, alloy heads will keep the weight and temps down, if you go the Windsor, get the girdle on the bottom end (less Iron down there so movement is possible under high revving)

You probably need to work out if you want to rev the crap out of it, (289HP..:thumb:) or just build yourself a nice strong motor..........hell..now that I think of it...just build a stock 429 and stop thinking:smile01:

You choice...either way you should go a 351 or bigger...you will not be disappointed.

The only substitute for cubes is more cubes!!!!:rub:
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Offline JT_1994

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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 07:43:48 pm »
Yeah, I have read loads on how Clevos are good for bottom end torque but as I am not building it at the moment and until it comes time to install I won't know my RPM range or anything like that... But surely a new manifold/ alloy heads would out perform the standard 2V heads of a clevo... combined with some flat top pistons (for higher C/R)...
What would my options there be?

Unfortunately I am struggling to find many 351 Clevo blocks that are suitable for what I want that are within my price range as a lot of them are getting to the price range of a brand new 302 Boss block from FORD RACING like this one...
( http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M6010BOSS302/ )
or even this... a 351 Boss block form FORD RACING ( http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M6010BS351BB/ )

Which would the preferred option be between 351W and 351C?
(in mild form, heads, intake etc.)

and IF you were building the motor, what brand of parts would most likely go in? this would narrow my search down enough that I could see what I was getting in for... ( with a budget )
(heads, carb, intake, pistons etc.)

:gpost:
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Offline JT_1994

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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2012, 08:33:16 pm »
JT_1994 aka "Nixon"

Offline booah

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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2012, 08:57:05 pm »
Heres a link to the Cleveland section of the Ford forum. Excellent info with some very experienced Cleveland and engine people in general. Use the search function for a while and I'm sure you find all the info and combinations pertaining to clevelands using stock blocks and new aftermarket blocks.

http://www.fordforums.com.au/forumdisplay.php?f=10

Offline Blue Oval

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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2012, 08:41:47 pm »
For your application I would say Windsor, Windsor, Windsor.
I have had plenty of Clevos. Actually more than Windsors and they have their place.
But if you are after mild performance from an engine and want more torque down low. This is a Windsor. Not a Clevo.
The Windsor weighs considerably less over the front end, plugs are easy to change,extractors easier to buy and fit.
my .02 cents worth
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Offline JT_1994

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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2012, 09:36:10 pm »
OK, what about strokers, which blocks (windsor/ clevo) handle these kits better?
As for "Clevor" motors what EXACTLY is envolved. Is it just a bit of adjusting to the heads oil/ water passages to match them to the block or is there more to it?
JT_1994 aka "Nixon"

Offline 6T9rustang

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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2012, 07:35:55 am »
Yes much more involed to build clevor engines. Custom pistons, pushrod and rockers for a start. Then there is pulleys and brackets and custom headers... Custom = $$$.   I have a clevor engine.

Offline Blue Oval

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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2012, 08:23:39 am »
Quote from: JT_1994 link=topic=17171.msg171829#msg171829
OK, what about strokers, which blocks (windsor/ clevo) handle these kits better?
As for "Clevor" motors what EXACTLY is envolved. Is it just a bit of adjusting to the heads oil/ water passages to match them to the block or is there more to it?


What do you mean by "handle these kits better?"
The 8.2" deck windsor can be stroked readily to 331 and 347 c.i.
You can even go to 363 if you have an aftermarket block.
There are any amount of aluminium heads available for them.
Clevos can readily be stroked to 383,393 and 408 c.i.
There are good Australian aluminium heads available for these.




 1966 GT Coupe. AFR 185 heads, Hyd Roller cam.  1/4 mile 11.21 sec @123mph

Offline JT_1994

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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2012, 04:01:08 pm »
What I mean is...

Does one have advantages / disadvantages that the other does not?
Talking about both 351W and 351C.. I would be looking at either Edelbrock RPM 351C heads (like this. http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/cylheads/ford/cle_perf_rpm.shtml ) and a manifold to match... Any other suggestions?

If I was going with a stroker, what kits would you suggest?
(both rotating assembly and top end.)
JT_1994 aka "Nixon"

Offline shaunp

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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2012, 04:52:07 pm »
AFR or Trickflow are the heads you want on a windsor. CHI is what you want on Clevo. The oiling issue is related to the block design not the pump used in a Clevo, the crank starves and the cam getts twice what it needs. Personally in your car Id run a windsor for ease. But if you want a clevo you don't need a 351, an Australian 302 clevland is bascally the same block,as a 351, unlike windsors, you just change the internals or fit a stroker kit and you have a 351 or 393. Australian blocks have higher nickle content as well. 302 Clevos cost nothing to buy.

Offline JT_1994

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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2012, 05:13:27 pm »
When you say, "unlike windsors, you just change the internals or fit a stroker kit and you have a 351 or 393" Does that mean a clevo can be stroked further than a windsor? Or there are mods (other than the pistons / crank etc.) that must be made to stroke a windsor?:phone:

And what advantages (other than burning less fuel) would a 302C hold?
JT_1994 aka "Nixon"

Offline shaunp

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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2012, 05:22:29 pm »
302 and 351 windsors are different blocks, a 302 clevo was only made here, not in the US, it is a 351 with a short thow crank. What I'm saying is if you want to stroke a 351, you can also stoke a 302 clevo to the same, but 302 windor is a smaller block than a 351 windsor.  You can stroke a 351 windsor the same as a clevo 393, on a standard block even 408. The after market blocks handle 460. You will find windsor stuf is cheaper. After market Windsor heads are very good now, which negates the need, for the old 4v  Clevo builds really