Starter Motor - chewed up teeth

[napes]

hi guys - hope you can help me out with the questions below...

Just taken the starter motor out as last week it started to fail to start and now just makes a grinding noise. Teeth on the starter motor are pretty chewed up - I've attached pic. there's also a bit of wear on the ring gear (pic is a bit rubbish as I was holding a torch and iphone and just snapping blindly!). I would have thought that the gear would throw further than just the area that the teeth have ground down so perhaps that was the initial problem?

Questions...

[1] What level of damage means a ring gear replace? Or is it a case of throwing a new starter motor in there and seeing what happens?!

[2] Is it worthwhile changing from the old clapper style to something like this? http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130368933834&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_956

[3] If I was to stick with same type as I have, is this about the right price (I'd be getting a manual version though)? http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280461951234&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_1182

[4] Can they be reconditioned for cheaper and is it worth it!?

So far the car has only been on the road a couple of dozen times... ;]  hoping that this will be the last of it for a little while at least and I can actually make it out to a cruise!

thanks in advance for any help on the above

(n)

[HEVEN67]

Here is your baby,http://www.rocketindustries.com.au/descriptions.php?partno=CVR5055   and one of them steel billet flywheel from fleebay, withesome new ARP flywheel bolts!

[napes]

Thanks Hev - that all looks like a nice bunch of kit but probably a bit overkill for my basic 302 2v with original style exhaust & 3spd - come rebuild time definitely, but for now just want to be driving again. Also have it parked down the back of a sloped & really tight gravel laneway so near impossible to get it out otherwise.

[nassi]

There is some difference between manual and auto  for starters, a spacer is required for one but not the other.
Help people ?????

[HEVEN67]

Yea manuals need the spacer, anyhow you may think its ab overkill but its no different to any or most Japanese truck starters, they work well and have a ton of guts!

[torrus]

The same happened to me when a helpful mechanic advised me I was missing a spacer and he charged me for the spacer and to install it.  About a dozen starts later it would only engage sometimes the other times it made a grinding noise.  When I pulled the starter it looked just like the picture.  A spacer is only required on manuals not autos.

[66RedRagtop]

Pull the spark plugs out and rotate the engine manually to inspect the ring gear.

If no teeth missing or badly graunched, fit a starter motor that meshes properly.

An original clapper starter works fine, but needs the lightweight cable from the solenoid to the starter ditched for a full thickness one.

Worth a try to avoid the big job of renewing the ring gear.

[napes]

Originally posted by 66RedRagtop
Pull the spark plugs out and rotate the engine manually to inspect the ring gear.

If no teeth missing or badly graunched, fit a starter motor that meshes properly.

An original clapper starter works fine, but needs the lightweight cable from the solenoid to the starter ditched for a full thickness one.

Worth a try to avoid the big job of renewing the ring gear.

Thanks for the info - have a manual so requires spacer - don't remember seeing one though - I gather it would sit between the starter connection plate & bell housing? Perhaps it is just stuck there so will have a look when I get home. That would mean though that gear on the end of starter would be even further back so perhaps it just wasn't throwing far enough. Ah well - will grab another one and see what happens!

[A67PNY]

Originally posted by nassi
There is some difference between manual and auto  for starters, a spacer is required for one but not the other.
Help people ?????

The starters are the same only diffrence the manuel had a spacer around 9mm thick.
I actually fitted washers until I found the proper spacer to fit. Had the same damage to the starter but no damage to the ring gear.
Cheers............

[napes]

Thanks for the reply A67PNY.
One other question - does $170 sound about right for a new starter? Or would I be better of tracking down a second hand one from wreckers?
Cheers
(n)

[hybrid]

Second hand can mean you're buying someone elses problem!

[napes]

Good point that... :i

[A67PNY]

napes
Where you located ?

[napes]

I'm in Pascoe Vale South - near Brunswick?

[A67PNY]

Originally posted by napes
I'm in Pascoe Vale South - near Brunswick?

U2U sent...........:(

[donoauto]

$170 sounds good. Measure the distance from where the starter bolts against to the front face of the flywheel & check that against the new starter before you by it. Go & see your local auto-elec. for best advice - most have been there , done that!

[jas24zzk]

I'm going to have to arrange a sticky on this for the forum...or get them to generate a new section.

Nate,

170-200 for new is about right.  The ebay one is a bit dear at 188 plus shipping.  I paid 150 for a NEW one for my patrol, but it is slightly different to a 'mustang' one.

Mustangs actually never had a spacer,  they have different pinion housings, and looking at yours, and having driven the car, yours has the correct housing.  The difference lies between where the housing mates to the sandwich plate, and the main case (black) of the starter housing.

If you call steve lond at mustangs of melbourne, tell him what you have, he will have one on the shelf with the correct pinion housing.

As suggested, inspect the ring gear for missing teeth, and major burs.  Any burr that really sticks out, take to with a file carefully, and keep in mind its a 'patch'.

You don't mention if the starter is actually spinning and failing to engage, or simply not spinning.  If its failing to engage, i'd look to lubing the pinion shaft, which is a common fault.

Cheers
Jas

PS. your email is still in the deal with box, just been snowed under with 10:30 pm knock off times.

[donoauto]

I always keep a clapper pole starter motor ( most common on older ford v8`s) on the shelf. Mine always come to suit auto-trans & I make sure that I keep a manual trans. drive end nose cone (pinion housing) aswell. This simple changeover of nose cones does seriously affect the spacing of the drive to ring gear so it is vital that you have the correct one.
 If the ring gear does have a nasty patch or 2 on it , it will punish the new drive gear in the starter motor when you get it replaced (slowly but surely).
 As Jaz said above , try to clean up burred spot but if it is too damaged ( hard to see ring gear photo) , you`ll have to change the ring gear ie. gearbox out job

p.s. I`m assuming that it is a clapper pole starter by looking at what nose cone is in the 1st photo

[napes]

Thanks guys

I'm getting under there this tonight to check ring gear before chucking a new starter in as chewing up another doesn't make good sense - hopefully will be minor damage only - bit hard to tell by feel though.

Here's a couple of pictures of the starter as well - if that all looks correct I'll match to that - just wanted to be sure - seemed odd to me that only the end of the gear was stripped.




Jas - regarding email still in deal with box - cheers for letting me know.

Thanks again

(n)

[napes]

OK - got under the car this afternoon - damage to flywheel doesn't appear bad at all - pic below - from what I could see with torch and by feel there wasn't any worse than this.

Filed the teeth I could get to (which realistically was only about 5th of them). Took plugs out but couldn't rotate engine manually - also tried sticking in 1st and pushing car forward without luck - any thoughts?

My gut feeling is to just chuck another starter in there and see what happens, but thought I'd get feedback from here on the condition of the flywheel teeth first.

Thanks again for all the feedback up to this point - has been really helpful.

cheers

(n)

[donoauto]

Yeah , they don`t look that bad at all. I lever a large flat bladed screw driver between bell housing & flywheel teeth to rotate it to inspect entire circumference of flywheel - but that particular section in the photo looks ok. Given the damage to the drive gear , I would go the hard yards to rotate & inspect.
I`ll endeavor to measure difference between auto/manual nose cones ASAP.I`ll let you know.

[66RedRagtop]

Strange you can't rotate the engine manually with the plugs out.

Not in gear is it ?.

It's OK to lever it around on the ring gear, but softly softly though, so you don't break a tooth off.

[MustangNut]

Try using a 15/16" socket on the harmonic balancer bolt rotate it clockwise or you may undo the bolt. It should move relatively freely with the plugs out.

[napes]

Thanks guys - really appreciate the feedback. Will try the screwdriver method or harmonic balance bolt also just to be sure the rest of the teeth are like this. I'm confident as it has been spinning on this section of the flywheel most without engaging - previously it failed just a few times before not engaging at all.

Will also order a new starter tuesday - will need one either way!
I'm not a purist (the old girl isn't particularly original) so if you guys reckon a more modern gear reduction motor is a better bet would love to hear about it!!!  :(

Thanks again, Nathan

[jas24zzk]

Nate,
      before you use the screwdriver trick to rotate the flywheel, Mark the flywheel so you know where you began.  :p

A piece of masking tape, or paint a tooth with some liquid paper :)

As for a high torque,  have a chat to the Boys at Cameron Auto Electrical in Lilydale.  They supplied one for my old mans 351c and its da bomb! , I'll certainly be shoving one in the bumpwagon  next time my clapper falls out.


Cheers
Jas