351W stalls when selecting drive

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Offline Woz

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351W stalls when selecting drive
« on: December 12, 2023, 03:05:13 pm »
Hello,

I have a friend who imported a 67 coupe with a 351W from USA 15 years ago,
now wants to get it on the road.
Old motor no sensors, has a hot cam (don't know what) and roller rockers,
Edelbrock 1403 carb, noticed there is no oil filler cap, 1 rocker cover has no holes and 1 has PCV valve.

Minimum idle is 900 to 1000 rpm, when you select drive it stalls, tried removing the PCV valve, no change.

I know it's hard to diagnose engine problems with no inspection, but any help much appreciated.

Thanks
Woz


Online Reborn67

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2023, 05:07:59 pm »
I’d say more info is needed,
When if ever was it driven last, does the engine run through other gears, or neutral,
Does the owner know the condition of the auto,
So many unknowns at this stage..,

Online Reborn67

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2023, 05:14:49 pm »
Another note, how long has the car been sitting and has the fuel system been cleaned out,

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2023, 09:24:28 pm »
Hey Woz,
Watch this YouTube about Edelbrock electric choke adjust.
Are you getting warm up past fast idle.
And is the electric choke working ok.

https://youtu.be/daK-go2PMrk?si=aF8ig2i4iMEcGhaq

Other than that check timing! Air / fuel mixture!

Cheers Phil
« Last Edit: December 12, 2023, 09:26:48 pm by AussiePhil »
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Online 6t9m1

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2023, 10:07:07 pm »
Try connecting a temporary wire from the positive side of the coil to the positive side of the battery.
Also you could try connecting a jumper lead from the engine to the negative side of the battery.
 :bolt:

Offline Woz

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2023, 10:54:39 pm »
thanks for the replies,

car was purchased on USA Ebay unseen, driven of the transporter from Melb, owner came home, and the car was sitting in the driveway 15 years ago,
hasn't moved until i drove it 30m around his yard.
engine will run through drive and reverse on axle stands, car not registered, engine and transmission oil look good,
condition of the transmission unknown,
No choke fitted, just close the choke by hand until it starts and warms up,
timing is correct, adjusting the Idle mixture screws does nothing,
fuel has been drained and replaced, new spark plugs,
will try connecting wire next time.
Thanks


Offline GEOFF289

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2023, 08:37:15 am »
If the idle mixture screws do nothing there is fuel getting in when it shouldn't be. Could be a blown power valve.

Offline Woz

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2023, 09:07:17 am »
Also, forgot to mention I changed the carby with the 1 on my car, (289 Edelbrock 1404) car wouldn’t start.
Can’t do the wiring suggestion, battery in the boot.
Ok, what’s a power valve?
Thanks
Woz

Offline jiffy

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2023, 10:44:53 am »
I would be figuring out why it won't run with your carb. Sounds like there is a massive air leak that the existing carb is modified to 'correct' but the underlying problem still exists.
The car should run with your known good carb.
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Offline AussiePhil

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2023, 12:52:00 pm »
Also, forgot to mention I changed the carby with the 1 on my car, (289 Edelbrock 1404) car wouldn’t start.
Can’t do the wiring suggestion, battery in the boot.
Ok, what’s a power valve?
Thanks
Woz

Hey Woz,
If your sticking on a jetted 289 carburettor on a 351 engine jets will be much smaller, leaner and will stall?

Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline Woz

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2023, 02:40:27 pm »
Yes I did think it was odd that it would not start with my carby, I thought that if I swap the carby and it didn't stall the problem would be the carby,
we have ordered a kit for the carby, will rebuild and see if we still have the issue,
I thought it may be a vacuum issue, as there is no oil filler cap, where does the crankcase breathe from, my understanding is it draws air from the filler cap and exits through the PCV valve.
Someone told me mixture idle screws only adjust at idle rmp, with the cam minimum this car will idle is 900 to 1000, I thought that it would be too fast to adjust the mixture screws.
Thanks
Woz


Offline GLENN 70

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2023, 03:56:51 pm »
Does it have  an electronic distributor?

Offline Woz

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2023, 04:21:56 pm »
Yes, MSD Ignition, they installed the coil and MSD Box where the battery normally is.
Thanks
Woz

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2023, 04:37:24 pm »
Make sure it has a full 12volts  going to the distributor . Mustangs only had points distributors and  run wiring that cuts the volts down to 9 volts  . When an electronic distributor is fitted you must run a full 12 volts to it ,otherwise it will idle ok but stall with its put into gear . May not be the problem but worth looking at .

Offline GEOFF289

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2023, 04:38:44 pm »
Has the ballast resistor in the ignition circuit been bypassed then to give a full 12 volts to the coil?

I had this problem. It would only idle with the revs turned way up and die when I turned it down to a normal sort of level. Putting yours into drive might be pulling the revs down too low for the 9 odd volts of the original circuit when your electronic dizzy needs a full 12. Check the voltage at the coil while the engine's running and see what you've got.

Just read Glenn's post as I previewed mine, so ditto.

Offline Woz

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2023, 07:25:12 pm »
Ok, going there tomorrow will check the voltage at the coil and report.
Thanks
Woz

Offline jiffy

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2023, 04:24:14 pm »
I thought it may be a vacuum issue, as there is no oil filler cap, where does the crankcase breathe from, my understanding is it draws air from the filler cap and exits through the PCV valve.
Someone told me mixture idle screws only adjust at idle rpm, with the cam minimum this car will idle is 900 to 1000, I thought that it would be too fast to adjust the mixture screws.
Thanks
Woz

So - a few things to bear in mind:
1] The PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) is designed to suck fumes from inside the engine valve covers (where those fumes come up from the sump after blowing past the rings) to clean up the operation of the engine. The PCV valve opens more at low-vacuum, large throttle openings and uses the remaining manifold vacuum to suck blow-by (which have blown past the rings) into the intake manifold and the engine re-burns the fumes - it's an emissions feature. It should suck a little at idle, and open more when you're WFO and thrashing the engine producing lots of fumes which need to be sucked up by the PCV. It does not 'exit' into the engine.

2] If you have a oil filler cap, with a vent on it, then in theory those fumes travel up a hose to the inside of the air filter. This feature does far call, as there is no valve and little vacuum inside the air cleaner. It's a gimmick as much as useful.

3] The idle screws will work at small openings of the primary throttle blades. If they aren't making a difference, then a couple of things come to mind. There is either an air leak, a fuel leak, or the primary blades are open too far at idle for the idle circuits to work. If it's the last one, then the secondary throttle blades have an adjustment under the carb base plate (on a Holley, anyway) which you can use to open the secondary blades to increase the idle speed. You can then close the primaries using the idle adjustment screw to get both the speed and the mixture correct, because with the secondaries opened slightly, the primaries can be closed enough to make the air bleed circuits work, and the mixture screw settings can be corrected for optimum operation.

4] The comment about your 289 carb being too small for the 351 is both correct and incorrect. At full throttle, the 289 carb is likely to be too small to allow the engine to breathe and produce maximum power. At low engine speeds for troubleshooting purposes, it won't really matter - the purpose of the carb is to get the correct fuel mixture at a given air speed. Assume the carbs are perfectly set up and their AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) is perfect all the way through the range, then the following would be true:

289 carb - max CFM = 500 (for example)
351 carb - max CFM = 650 (for example)

351 Engine speed   CFM     AFR        Percentage capacity used
                                                        289 carb    351 carb

1,000 rpm               86       13.0         17%            13%
3,000 rpm             259       13.0         52%            40%
5,000 rpm             431       13.0         86%            66%
5,800 rpm             501       13.0         100%            77% - the 351 would not be able to rev higher than 5,800rpm, with the smaller carb.
7,500 rpm             648       13.0         N/A            100% - with the bigger carb, the engine could run harder, longer, assuming everything
                                                                                      else was capable of supporting those revs.

You can see that the 351 would run ok with a smaller carb, but would run out of the steam 2,000rpm earlier than the 650cfm carb - all examples and probably hard to replicate in the real world.

Simples. Not really, but you know how it goes...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2023, 01:11:03 pm by jiffy »
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Offline AussiePhil

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2023, 06:06:57 pm »
Hey Woz,
Sounds like jiffy has covered just about everything.

Can’t disagree!

Hope you have success !

Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline FB.65.68.70

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2023, 06:34:59 pm »
Hi Woz,
A few things with this stick out to me.
Car was bought but never driven, Car runs through the gears when on axle stands. Car also has a decent cam in it.
Unless the auto has a mild stall torque convertor, the car will stall when you put it into gear . Most auto's have a few revs to bring up between idle and when the convertor starts to engage. Yours if its a standard convertor is pulling against the engine soon as you throw it into gear because of the cam specs. (note your idle is up from stock)
If you put your foot on the brakes and keep some throttle in it when you put it into drive does it stall ?

Offline Woz

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2023, 07:32:50 pm »
Hi there,
thanks for the details Jiffy,

I only fitted my carb 500 cfm to see if it stalls when selecting gear, but the car wouldn't even start, so I fitted the 600 cfm back on,
car will only idle 900 to 1100 rpm, is that normal with the cam?

From your description the crankcase can breathe without the oil filler cap.

I checked the voltage at the coil, 12 volts at Ignition stage and running.

the car wouldn't idle at all, just run at 900 rpm then just stop. I removed the carby, took of the top and inspected, nothing unusual except float drop was a bit low.

One strange thing I noticed today, when i put my foot on the brake, the car stalled, doesn't have brake booster.

Yes, if you keep your foot on the brake and keep up the rpm with the pedal you can get in drive, but the rpm is too high, and it bangs into gear.

Unknown what converter is in the car, guess the only way to tell is rip it out, does have a BM shifter. Noticed it will start in gear, guessing that is not roadworthy.

Thanks
Woz




Offline GEOFF289

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2023, 07:53:38 pm »
Not something weird up with the adjustment of the selector rods and NSS is there? Putting into drive opening the NSS? 

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2023, 10:25:54 am »
Hey Woz,

You said the battery is in the boot, how big are your cables!

Also, now you’ve been turning and turning over the engine make sure you’re recharging the battery!

Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2023, 10:29:41 am »
Not something weird up with the adjustment of the selector rods and NSS is there? Putting into drive opening the NSS?

Good suggestion Geoff!


B&M cable adjustment on Turbo 350.

https://vimeo.com/250407276

Cheers Phil.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2023, 11:13:47 am by AussiePhil »
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2023, 11:22:13 am »


Unknown what converter is in the car, guess the only way to tell is rip it out, does have a BM shifter. Noticed it will start in gear, guessing that is not roadworthy.

Thanks
Woz

Hey Woz,
Very dangerous as well, are you sure it has a neutral Safety Switch fitted or has it been tampered with!

My son in law has a XW Ute that had a dickie selector, Dog jumped in the car and knocked in reverse, son jumped in started and ripped the door off and damaged the garage pillar, easy adjust, locate pin in hole and lock down. I talked him out of selling it for almost nothing and I stored it for about three years!
Since then the car has been repaired, repainted Green with Gold fleck, Gold GT Stripes, Simmons wheels and is faultlessly beautiful! He’s very glad he didn’t sell it!
YouTube for adjustment.
Not mentioned as yet but I assume it’s a C4 transmission.

Cheers Phil.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2023, 11:39:48 am by AussiePhil »
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline jiffy

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Re: 351W stalls when selecting drive
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2023, 01:07:45 pm »
Not something weird up with the adjustment of the selector rods and NSS is there? Putting into drive opening the NSS?

Doesn't the NSS only prevent the starter circuit of the car, I don't believe it can interrupt the ignition circuit....?
Black '69 CJ 4SPD car under construction (425/504)
Black 2002 SVT Cobra - 2003 Terminator Clone (575rwhp/716rwtq - SOLD)
Black ‘63.5 Galaxie 4SPD fastback (just you wait...)