Sniper EFI v electric carb

[cj]

HI - has anyone installed a sniper EFI system recently (I have a 66 289) - I don't see a lot of good reviews with quite a few costly problems - what should they cost and are they worth it? thx cj

[SMH00N]

I've had a Sniper kit on my car for a few years, but limited running.
I can give you feedback on stock and modified motor setups.

I first installed the kit on a very tired stock 302 and auto. I used an Edelbrock Torker manifold. I used the Holley Sniper EFI tank with in-built pump (this is a 1970) which is just the Tanks Inc unit. Plumbed new 3/8" delivery and return lines, followed the wiring instructions to the full stop. Lots of people complaining about electrical issues, I have never had any that I know of.
As a stand-alone fuel system on this motor I was a convert. Starts hot or cold effortless (I also have MSD 6AL ignition and billet distributor, a hi torque starter), good response and power. This was set up without timing control so it was just sticking fuel into the motor. The ability to control the 2 cooling fans, idle and others via the handheld is a bonus. Fuel economy, I dunno I reckon if you are worried about how much gas they suck you are in the wrong hobby. As the system uses its' own temp sensor, you need to find a spot for it or loose the factory sensor location. No matter, the little hand held shows temp, revs, and a whole lot of other intel. It's not a CANBUS system but not bad for a 1960's car.
Start of this year I put in a 347 and 5 speed. I then changed the system to timing control. Under this setup I've had a few hassles. The systems self-learn but only fuelling. You have to develop a timing map for them, specific to your motor. It is done via laptop software, but me personally is struggling with it and I've had to get a guy to help me over the interwebs. Not hard, it's a file you upload to the ECU via the SD card. You can also save a data log so experienced peeps can analyse the setup.

The hassles have been minor - the O2 sensor died and doesn't tell you it has. I had a small header leak which seemed to be affecting the AFR. Timing needed a few tweaks and making sure the distributor is synced. It also has a tendency to die as you roll up to a stop (this is a manual. so as you dip the clutch from low revs but not idle) which is annoying. I also found that on a worked motor I needed a fixed orifice PCV valve, as the normal ones affect the signals in the carb. No big deal, but 6 bucks in the US and 26 bucks here is a pain.
On start, you have about a 3 second wait from ignition on to kick it over whilst the system cycles and primes. No big deal but you have to be aware of it as it's not your daily.

This week I have just replaced the headers so I am hoping the fuelling issues disappear and it gets back to how it was.

Cost? When I bought it I reckon I spent about $2,500 on the carb, tank, fuel lines, AN fittings and filters (You need 10 and 40 micron).
I bought it as I didn't want the hassle of tuning a carb and the feedback then indicated they were a good thing. When I look at the cost of a decent 650 (say $800), having it tuned (say $800 again? IDK) and then ongoing maintenance I think it is a good investment. But, I only drive this thing short distances locally so far and it has not done a lot of miles so I don't know how the hard parts (in the carb; injectors, ecu, sensors) will last before replacement. The water temp switches are typical GM stuff so easy enough to get.

Would I buy it again? Yes. But I would want to have a local tuner handy (I am in Sydney and there does not seem to be a tuner I can go to) who could dial it in on a modified motor. I would also use the Holley in-tank fuel sender and pump that was released not long after I bought it, as the fittings in the top of the tank disrupt your luggage space and you really cannot put stuff on top of electrical and fuel fittings. There's also annoying little things like not being shipped with a progressive accelerator linkage, which makes them nicer to drive (stock they open all 4 barrels equally, the progressive is like your typical 4 barrel with secondary opening ~40% after primary).

Holley has a very active forum with many users and a few guys who will assist with tunes remotely (I am being helped by one such guy for no cost), they do software updates every few years.

The problems reported by users can be traced back to instal - poor wiring is the biggest I think. I shielded all wires, used direct connections to the battery, used quality connectors for all wires. I see that some Ford guys report RFI issues due to the front distributor and the close location to the ECU in the front 'bowl' but the guy looking at my data logs tells me I don't have an issue. I am using a small body MSD distributor so maybe that's the reason. The alternative is to put a sheet of alloy in between both and that seems to work.

When I was buying I looked at the FAST stuff but they had more complaints than Sniper so I went with the less-complained about.

If you're in Sydney welcome to come and have a sticky beak.

[fatrat]

hi

i first installed on 65 with 289 and auto about 6 years ago. the holley carb on there would go through a full tank between sydney and canberra without any spirited driving. with the sniper, the cold starts are excellent and fuel economy is much better. the first attempt was challenging. called holley helpline (had to wait until about midnight AU) and they send a whole new system. the highlight of the first system was the ceasing of the 02 sensor in bondi one sunday morning, which caused over fuelling and wouldn't start. i got it home, eventually, after smoking out the entire of the sunday brunch scene.

the second unit was fine, the 02 sensor was ok, however i didn't get too stuck into the tuning etc part of it. driving it wasn't great and it was frustrating. i didn't do the sensilbe things though - like check the voltage at the coil (pertronix coil and electontic ignition) so I wasn't having the best time while driving it. i forked out $800 to get a tune on a dyno in QBN near canberra, that made a lot of difference, and the tuner locked the tune so that the holley sniper didn't update fuel etc. there was a backfire through the throttle body at around 2200rpm, which sounded awful and used to scare me when it happened.

This year i've replaced the dash, had found that the immobilser had shorted itself and so re-wired the dash completely. I kept the ballast resistor wire, however added a relay to the coil. i had found that the coil was only getting 6-7 volts, which wasn't great.

The dyno graph showed the timing moving about, as the timing changed in the distributor. was a bit annoyed the operator didn't mention, or didn't pick it up.

I did invest in the sniper fuel tank and the hyperspark coil, box and distributor, as i thought these were problems, causing the backfire. as soon as i added the relay, the backfire ceased, and it has been excellent to drive. throttle response was great, cold starts a breeze (i'm in highlands nsw and no probs on those frosty winter mornings) the car goes through the gears and rev range without issue now.

if i was starting again, i would be concious of the below:
- not installing on jack stands, if possible, it is a pain to try and drill the bung into the exhaust while its on the ground, or on stands - and make sure the bung is close enough to the collectors
- RESEARCH!! i looked at fueltech and holley - i went with holley as they have been around and i had used before. There is a guy name Joe Simpson who is based in the states, he has excellent information on tuning holley systems on you tube and a course if you want to get overwhelmed
- seek help where needed. i had spent $3k or so on a master kit - another $800 to get it running perfect was money well spent
- don't be discouraged if its not great day 1. see point 2. learn about it, appreciate the complexities and lean on the holley notice boards if you need to
- if your 02 sensor fails, there is no need to buy a holley sniper replacement. check the plug, the wires and look for alternatives. i was on my 5th 02 sensor before i figured this out. i hadn't adjusted the cold start enough which put too much fuel in and made the start up dirty, which fouled the sensor
- try and score yourself an invite to donnie's mustang rescue, who has did 95% of the work on this for me

overall, much better than the carb, however much harder to get correct

[6R07K]

G'day,

Been running the Snipper for two years. Basic setup not controlling timing and returnless fuel setup via the Holley direct fit into factory tank pump. First thing you need to understand is that "self-tuning" is on the border of false advertising. What really happens is you need to define what your engine needs and then the Snipper will attempt to keep it on target. So things you will need to program are AFR values for idle, cruise and WOT, Target idle rpm and parameters around returning to idle, cold start parameters and timing table etc. If that is not your thing best factor in getting it tuned by a pro. Sure it's advertised as just follow the setup Wizard and all will be great, what I can guarantee you is if it does run it will be overly rich and unlikely to perform its best in all situations.

Need to do your research and work out all the little tips and tricks. As an example, the ECU is on the front of the unit, unfortunatly for us Ford guys that means the distributor and air filter lid can cause EMI and a world of pain. Chasing the sometimes random EMI issues can lead people to binning the Sniper. The simple fix is not to bend the rules and source power directly from the battery, correct plugs, new leads and cap and you will likely be trouble-free.

The new Sniper 2 is out fixing a lot of issues such as better insulation from EMI, external fuel regulator, fixed injector connections etc.

I don't have any regrets other than wishing I knew some tricks earlier. Performs better than the carb in all respects other than cost and ....reliability is a risk.

[pmb0186]

I was keen on the idea but turn off by a friend who fitted to to his XB.
It flat spots off idle to the extent it stalls.
He blames the fact that soon after it was fitted rather than drive the car he started the car and turned it off a number of time.
since then he's been two dyno shops and although improved it still not 100%

[6R07K]

I was keen on the idea but turn off by a friend who fitted to to his XB.
It flat spots off idle to the extent it stalls.
He blames the fact that soon after it was fitted rather than drive the car he started the car and turned it off a number of time.
since then he's been two dyno shops and although improved it still not 100%

Starting the car multiple times shouldn't affect things, I would have done that myself initially. Sniper doesn't "learn" until temp is over 160, and even if some funny business went on it should learn itself back to the correct target AFR. From memory, the best initial start is let it idle up to temp, so it starts learning the idle area of the fuel table and then varied driving conditions to progressively populate the fuel table before any WOT.

It sounds like he needs a better tuner as something like the target AFR table or acceleration enrichment could be wrong. They should either fix it or point you at the issue.

[trav68]

If you can stretch the budger check out the Edelbrock PF4  (multipoit) system. I have it and am very happy has run flawlessly since first turm on ~ 2 years ago. Operation and thfottle response is fantastic.

[Edz]

I fitted the sniper version 1 (no tunability) and have had it on the car for 10 months now. Very happy with driveability however I can't say it drives any better than the 750 Holley I threw on out of the box and didn't touch, to the point that one day I'm putting the Holley back on to see how it compares. Two pumps and the Holley started first time everytime in Canberra's -12 winter to Summernats cruise on a 40 degree day.

I'm running an AODE, 351 stroker with 10.5:1 comp, Edelbrock performer, Headman headers, roller rockers and a Voodoo Hydraulic Roller Cam 231 239 which has a very lumpy idle even with the efi. My afr sits around 13.5 to 14 on cruise and drops to 12 on full throttle. Pulling about 480hp and 450 ft/lbs a 3000 rpm so it's very easy to light the tyres. If I hit the throttle at 80k's it kicks back from 4th to 2nd and lights the tyres.

The throttle response is crisp and clean whether I flatten it or just slowly bring it on, no hesitations, backfires or anything, but as I said, the Holley 750 carb was the same.

Cost: 2nd hand system was $1300 but I had to buy an o2 sensor $180 and then a $325 tps to give a throttle position to the Quick 4 gearbox controller for gear changes. I bought a new 80L tank and in-tank Holley efi pump and fuel gauge sender to give me extra range. Then I upgraded the fuel lines to 3/8" aluminium and added an efi fuel filter ($150). My system is returnless and works great as the pump just dumps excess fuel in the tank.

So all up $3055 compared to $900 - $600 for the 650 Holley and $300 for the fuel pump and filters.

Would do it again? No, I'd rather pocket the extra $2155 because I didn't notice any difference! That's why I'm going to put the carby back on and do a trip to compare fuel usage.

Did 700k from Canberra to Sydney and back on the weekend. Got 15L/100 at 110 kmh which is 19 mpg so not bad considering the easy hp my motor produces (but I have to run 98 at $2.32/L). Around town it's 17L/100 so drops to 16.6 mpg. It will be interesting to see what the carby does.

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[6R07K]

Hi,

Sniper 1 is very much tuneable, you could be leaving something on the table not tuning it. If it starts on the key under all conditions and has good drivability probably not massive gains though. Those AFR's at first glance seem rich, so guessing the numbers are wizard populated.

Snipers are never likely to be the best solution from a cost perspective.

[peter9231]

Little off the topic but,
I have the original Ford 5 litre with EFI and a BTR 4 speed auto in mine (out of NC fairlane)
Engine has had a freshen up and port matched standard heads.larger throttle body and air flow meter with an explorer intake manifold.
I built it for cruising and it does that extremely well with unbelievable fuel economy that would rival smaller cars.
It can sit for months (with ctek charger) attached and starts like it had been turned off yesterday no matter the temperature.
I would never go back to a Carburettor.
Peter