Do you have to degree a new cam ?

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Author Topic: Do you have to degree a new cam ?  (Read 489588 times)

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1400 on: April 27, 2016, 05:54:04 pm »
So it's way too rich at idle and fouling the plugs..


Obviously way out of my league but could they have also done all kinds of weird and wonderful things with the jetting etc too ?

1. Yes.

2. Your popping with the other cam may have been due to your wasted distributor gear, however, it was most likely partially caused by the plugs loading up . As I mentioned a few times, it is missing and popping now because the plugs are loading up . That is why it ran fine again for a few minutes after you cleaned them . I can guarantee you that your carbs were rich on top end with the previous camshaft if the plugs looked like that.

3. Please don't ask how a carburetor works, especially a weber . It will be impossible to understand and pointless . A weber is a fkn nightmare and can take a rocket scientist hours to tune on a dyno . A holley can be tuned in 15 minutes without a dyno by any moron on the planet. 99.9% of the people that have webers on a street car that think they are perfectly tuned are wrong . For a weber to work really well on a street car, it needs a a lot of vacuum . The way to get a lot of vacuum is to put in a tiny camshaft, and in fact, a stock camshaft is the best choice for a weber, however, using a stock camshaft with a set of $4000.00 racing carburetors kind of defeats the purpose.

When you see webers on a true racing engine, the engine will be idling at over 1500 rpm and sometimes more . To even begin to understand how to tune a weber PROPERLY, you must FULLY understand how an emulsion tube works, whereas this is not necessary to understand on a holley . Below is just a very short explanation about how they work.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/0611phr-the-secret-life-of-carburetors/

"The calibration components considered so far have been the main jet, the emulsion tube, and the air bleed. Starting at the main jet, we find that a larger main jet makes the mixture richer, and vice versa. The effect of the emulsion tube will depend on the hole pattern. Here is how to read it: First, hold the emulsion tube upside down and inspect the hole pattern. Holes at the top of the emulsion tube will affect the top-end of the rev range. Holes in the middle will trim the mid-rpm range, and holes at the bottom, the low-rpm range. Where there are no holes, the mixture will be rich. Where there are holes, the mixture will be leaned out. Just how much the mixture is leaned out by the presence of holes depends on how many, and how big. The more holes present, the more the mixture is leaned out at that point. Because it is fed with air from the air bleeds, the emulsion tube's overall function is influenced by the air bleed size. A larger air bleed leans out the mixture, but at low rpm and small throttle openings, the air bleed has little influence over the mixture. As the engine's demand for air increases due to an increase in throttle opening and rpm, so the air bleed's influence increases. At high rpm, just a few thousandths change in the air bleed diameter can have a significant effect on mixture.

One other aspect of the emulsion tube and well is that they act not only as a means of calibration but also as a control element for fuel atomization. By emulsifying the fuel prior to it reaching the booster, the fuel is easier to shear into fine droplets at the point of discharge. Generally, the more it is emulsified with air in the emulsion tube, the easier it is to atomize at the venturi. With an understanding of how it is achieved, let us now look at what we need the main circuit to deliver in the way of air-to-fuel ratio."
.





« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 01:16:30 am by barnett468 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1401 on: April 27, 2016, 05:57:09 pm »
So it's way too rich at idle and fouling the plugs..

Obviously way out of my league but could they have also done all kinds of weird and wonderful things with the jetting etc too ?

Based on all the totally retarded stuff we have seen on your engine, these guys were absolutely incapable of tuning a weber, so most likely the fk heads just bought them and installed them then sold it to some poor sucker.
.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:23:51 am by barnett468 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1402 on: April 27, 2016, 06:02:00 pm »
.
When you buy an $18,000.00 engine, and it grenades in less than 5,000 kilos and you then have to have people on an internet forum help you fix it from behind a computer, there is something seriously wrong with the people that built it in every single way there can be.


Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1403 on: April 28, 2016, 06:20:56 am »
SPARK PLUGS

If you get new plugs, which you need to, below are what you should get in order of best first . Super Cheap doesn't have them but may be able to order them or try other sources and good luck with that cuz you live in OZ.  :thumb:


1. NGK BKR4EIX

3.5 mm projected tip . Fine wire which requires around 9000 less volts to fire . this encourages the spark to fire at the tip instead of traveling up the side once the plugs get loaded up . These are pre-gapped to .031.


2. AUTOLITE XP3926

Projected tip . Fine wire which requires around 9000 less volts to fire . this encourages the spark to fire at the tip instead of traveling up the side once the plugs get loaded up.


2. NGK FR4

4 mm projected tip . Standard electrode.


3. NGK BKR4E

3 mm projected tip . Standard electrode.


4. AUTOLITE 3926

Projected tip . Standard electrode


http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/spark-plugs/brand/autolite/engine-type/v8/spark-plug-reach/0-750-in?N=4294926774%2B401131%2B4294951399%2B4294926745%2B4294926755&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending
.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 08:27:09 am by barnett468 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1404 on: April 28, 2016, 10:14:38 am »
Ok,

I know this probably isn't as accurate as what's needed but it's the best i could do..

The screws were all pretty tight so i turned them as far as i thought i could because i don't know how far i can turn them without doing any damage. They appeared to stop but i may have still been able to turn them more slightly but i didn't want to push it.

And given they seem to be all over the shop i'm not sure if it's worth just starting from scratch if that's possible

Facing the engine

       REAR

LEFT      RIGHT

2 1/4      2 1/2

2 3/4      1 3/4

2 1/2      2 3/4

1 1/2      2 1/2

      FRONT
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 10:16:11 am by Fitzy1980 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1405 on: April 28, 2016, 10:32:15 am »
.
ok xlnt.  :thumb:

this tells us that your pilot jet is pretty close.

try turning ALL the screws in again . they all must be bottomed out or it will never be right . just don't use all your force to do it like you are trying to strip it . the screws at 1 1/2 and 1 3/4 "should" be able to be turned in a little more if they were properly adjusted before but they may not turn in more . they will be what they will be.

do this, turn one screw out 1/2 turn, then turn it back in until it stops . then do the next one . you will get a better feel for when they bottom out this way . this is stupidly simple.  :smile01:

next . open them all to exactly, exactly, exactly 2 1/4 turns . this will be easier if you can face the screws head on which might be a bit hard with your setup.



« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 10:43:15 am by barnett468 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1406 on: April 28, 2016, 10:57:44 am »
Alright, turned them out 2 1/4. Don't know how exactly exactly exactly it is but first time for everything i guess..


I'm starting to think it might be better to offload the weber's down the track and run with a single..
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 10:59:43 am by Fitzy1980 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1407 on: April 28, 2016, 11:04:52 am »
Alright, turned them out 2 1/4. Don't know how exactly exactly exactly it is but first time for everything i guess..

I'm starting to think it might be better to offload the weber's down the track and run with a single..

DID THEY TURN IN ANY MORE?

CHECK THE FUEL REGULATOR PRESSURE WHILE IT IS IDLING
Start the pig if the plugs are clean.

Don't let it idle for more than 2 minutes.

Take another video just like the last one but try to get behind the car for the exhaust and see it the smoking gets any less.

.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 11:11:14 am by barnett468 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1408 on: April 28, 2016, 11:12:44 am »
DID THEY TURN IN ANY MORE?

CHECK THE FUEL REGULATOR PRESSURE

Start the pig if the plugs are clean.

Don't let it idle for more than 2 minutes.

Take another video just like the last one but try to get behind the car for the exhaust and see it the smoking gets any less.

.


Yeah a couple turned maybe 1/4 turn but i backed all out a few times to gauge where they bottom out. Having not done it before with the spring on the screw some feel like i could wind it in another 1/2 turn but i think thats me just forcing them.

Anyway, time will tell..

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1409 on: April 28, 2016, 11:44:15 am »

Yeah a couple turned maybe 1/4 turn but i backed all out a few times to gauge where they bottom out. Having not done it before with the spring on the screw some feel like i could wind it in another 1/2 turn but i think that's me just forcing them.

Anyway, time will tell..

you really have to turn them pretty hard sometimes with the spring on them and i guarantee you with 110% certainty, that if they are not all turned out exactly, exactly, exactly the same amount, you will have problems and it won't be any better off from what the retards had them set to . this is just ONE of the screw settings that will make or break how this thing runs and is just one of the many reasons these carbs are a nightmare . this is the joy of owning "race carbs".



« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 11:47:03 am by barnett468 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1410 on: April 28, 2016, 11:49:19 am »
Uploading video now.

Starts and idles, its pretty rough and it stalled but at least it starts and idles.

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1411 on: April 28, 2016, 11:51:09 am »
you really have to turn them pretty hard sometimes with the spring on them and i guarantee you with 110% certainty, that if they are not all turned out exactly, exactly, exactly the same amount, you will have problems and it won't be any better off from what the retards had them set to . this is just ONE of the screw settings that will make or break how this thing runs and is just one of the many reasons these carbs are a nightmare . this is the joy of owning "race carbs".

I'll do my best...

Yeah i got wrapped up in the looks and sound of them at full noise...  :lol:


As much as i'd hate to part with them and because there is no one within 3 hrs that is willing to even touch them i agree with you and glenn that a single long term will be so much better

« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 11:53:02 am by Fitzy1980 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1412 on: April 28, 2016, 11:58:51 am »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1413 on: April 28, 2016, 12:02:55 pm »
DON'T LET IT IDLE WHEN IT IDLES CRAPPY.

REV IT UP EVER TIME YOU START IT SO WE CAN TELL IF ITS MISSING.

yeah, thats pretty bad but it does run, so that's not so bad.  :thumb:


make sure the plug wire routing is correct.

make sure the plug wire routing is correct.

make sure the plug wire routing is correct.


make sure the timing hasn't moved.

make sure the timing hasn't moved.

make sure the timing hasn't moved.


if you want you can turn them all in again until they stop then turn them out exactly 2 1/2 turns . isn't this fun.  :thumb:.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 12:15:33 pm by barnett468 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1414 on: April 28, 2016, 12:15:23 pm »
ok, yeah, thats pretty bad.

make sure the timing hasn't moved.

if you want you can turn them all in again until they stop then turn them out exactly 2 1/2 turns . isn't this fun.  :thumb:.

Yeah its great  :thud:

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1415 on: April 28, 2016, 12:23:29 pm »
Timing is right, maybe a degree out if that. Wires are correct

Starts, but needs  throttle to stop it from stalling. Idles worse
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 12:52:23 pm by Fitzy1980 »

Offline lukep6470

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1416 on: April 28, 2016, 02:24:08 pm »
You need a flow meter to set the idle correctly.  The same amount of turns could have very different results on each carb. 

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1417 on: April 28, 2016, 03:40:13 pm »
You need a flow meter to set the idle correctly.  The same amount of turns could have very different results on each carb.


Luke the only thing it will be getting shortly is doused in fuel and a couple of matches....  :thud:

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1418 on: April 28, 2016, 03:55:54 pm »

Luke the only thing it will be getting shortly is doused in fuel and a couple of matches....  :thud:

Well since its dumping so much fuel into the cylinders now, all you need is a match.  :thumb:

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1419 on: April 28, 2016, 04:06:16 pm »
Well since its dumping so much fuel into the cylinders now, all you need is a match.  :thumb:

Don't tempt me..  :lmao:


Not only that, i smell like i've been bathing in fuel. Definitely staying away from any naked flames...  :lol:

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1420 on: April 28, 2016, 04:28:59 pm »
.
You are done until you get either of these.

1. NGK BKR4EIX

3.5 mm projected tip . Fine wire which requires around 9000 less volts to fire . this encourages the spark to fire at the tip instead of traveling up the side once the plugs get loaded up . These are pre-gapped to .031.


2. AUTOLITE XP3926

Projected tip . Fine wire which requires around 9000 less volts to fire . this encourages the spark to fire at the tip instead of traveling up the side once the plugs get loaded up.

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1421 on: April 28, 2016, 04:36:32 pm »
Yeah, i've had enough.  :ouch:

The more this sh!t keeps going the less interest i have in it and i'm pretty much at the point of just parking it for good or just fking it off as is and be done with it..

I think now it owes me well over $70k and to have it sitting there for nearly 6 months with issue after issue after issue is just infuriating..

Not to mention the sh!t i cop every day from the other half about it sitting there and costing money..  :kickass:

I need a drink..  :beer:
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 04:54:39 pm by Fitzy1980 »

Offline lukep6470

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1422 on: April 28, 2016, 04:55:59 pm »
Damn you haven't even made it on to the road yet to enjoy the fun of tweaking the geometry, lean misfires under part load, etc.

Offline lukep6470

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1423 on: April 28, 2016, 04:56:41 pm »
It sounds like time for a 4bbl.

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #1424 on: April 28, 2016, 05:02:34 pm »
Damn you haven't even made it on to the road yet to enjoy the fun of tweaking the geometry, lean misfires under part load, etc.

It used to run great till the distributor gear debacle thats when i was experiencing those misfire joys.. now just a complete pile...

Makes me angry just looking at the thing now... :lmao: