Camber Issues

[mk1_oz]

As has been documented in other threads, I have removed the old Granada disk brakes on my 65 convertible and installed a SSBC kit.

To achieve this I had to remove the Granada spindles and replaced them with a pair of 66 v8 spindles that I sourced at great cost.  I also had to replace the lower control arms (they were knackered) and the tie rod ends.

Now that the car is back on its wheels I have worryingly noticed that I now have an estimated 6 degrees of negative camber!!!

I have not yet been able to measure the old and new spindles but in the mean time does anybody know if camber issues exist between Granada and Mustang spindles??

I can see quite a few camber shims behind the upper control arm already.  I cannot see any obvious errors in my rebuild.

[barnett468]

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so the top of the tire is in too far?

have you pushed the car forward and rearward and pushed on the front to get it to settle?

irregardless of any difference in camber between the two spindles, you should not have more than around 3/8" of shims in the front and slightly less in the rear . . if the car is settled and you have more and your tire tilts in on top, it sounds like your suspension mounts are out of spec like the shock tower is pushed in or something.
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[mk1_oz]

I drove it down the road testing the brakes so yes its settled.  Top of wheel is towards engine more.  The wheel might be up under the guard more by an inch.

I will take a look under the car whilst it is on its wheels to see if anything is obvious.  Maybe when I  compressed the springs using the clamp I stuffed something up.  Hard to see what coild cause this.

Cheers

[Rayatswan]

Hi Mk1 can you tell me how much you paid for the 66 V8 spindles, thanks

[aussie trev]

just a thought. did you buy the correct lower control arms?eg early model .Did you compare them with your old ones

[barnett468]

I drove it down the road testing the brakes so yes its settled.

Well...do they f'n work now?

[Allan S]

I have heard of people using different upper arms when fitting Granada Brakes. Is it possible you're running a shorter (than standard Mustang) upper arm?

[mk1_oz]

Well...do they f'n work now?

Average but as I said before the pads/rotors are not bedded in and when the tyres are squealing from poor alignment its not all that easy to plant the brakes!

Different upper control arms?  Hmmmmm.....

[barnett468]

Average but as I said before the pads/rotors are not bedded in and when the tyres are squealing from poor alignment its not all that easy to plant the brakes!.

lol, yes, but does the pedal travel noticeably less now? . . You previously said it almost went to the floor.

Also, did you do the emergency brake test i suggested 3 times? 

[mk1_oz]

lol, yes, but does the pedal travel noticeably less now? . . You previously said it almost went to the floor.

Also, did you do the emergency brake test i suggested 3 times? 

total pedal travel is now 3" until the pedal is hard. It is probably acceptable but timw will tell how efficient they are.  As for the handbrake test, I did it the first time you suggested it but forgot to report back. It made no difference so the drums appear to be correctly adjusted.

Rayatswan - $550 from memory from the Adelaide dealer that Barnet suggested

aussie trev - compared the lower arms to the old ones and they are the same

Allen S - dont suppose you would know what alternate upper arms ppl use? Would help me when trying to ID what ones my mongrel has.  Actually, thinking about it alternate uppers would only contribute to this issue IF the 2 spindles had different dimensions which I am still trying to establish if they do.

[barnett468]

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Ok a total pedal travel of only 33 inches is ridiculously good for your particular system take my word for it . . It will not stop a lot better after the pads and shoes are bedded in, so if it still takes too much effort to stop after that you can get better pads and shoes or install a 15/16" master or get a larger power booster . . The smaller master will only increase pedal travel by around 15 mm so there is hope and light at the end of the tunnel.

[Allan S]

Sorry, only hearsay. I have no facts to back it up.

With the pedal travel, have you fitted the pedal arm modification that reduces pedal travel? made a HUGE difference to mine!!

http://www.cjponyparts.com/scott-drake-manual-disc-brake-push-rod-adjustable-set-1965-1968/p/A21161DB/

[barnett468]

Sorry, only hearsay. I have no facts to back it up.

With the pedal travel, have you fitted the pedal arm modification that reduces pedal travel? made a HUGE difference to mine!!

http://www.cjponyparts.com/scott-drake-manual-disc-brake-push-rod-adjustable-set-1965-1968/p/A21161DB/

This can be dangerous because it will increase the amount of foot pressure required to stop the car and the stock system already required a lot of force.

 

[Allan S]

This can be dangerous because it will increase the amount of foot pressure required to stop the car and the stock system already required a lot of force.

Correct. Not an issue with mine, as they're boosted. Stock, non boosted systems, shouldn't need the modifcation kit anyway, as they'll have less pedal travel than boosted ones.

[barnett468]

Correct. Not an issue with mine, as they're boosted. Stock, non boosted systems, shouldn't need the modifcation kit anyway, as they'll have less pedal travel than boosted ones.

Unfortunately, he actually has a booster and I and others have spent hours trying to help him get his brakes to work right and now that he has fixed his air in the line problem, it still doesn't seem to stop great, so if they don't improve once they break in and he can get on them hard, he'll have to try one of the options I mentioned, and a bigger booster will likely make the biggest improvement and won't affect his pedal travel but it will likely cost the most too.

[mk1_oz]

Assistance that is so gratefully appreciated!!!!  I am slowly learning all about Mustangs!!

Back to the camber issue.  I have taken some measurements this morning;

• I am happy that the Scott Drake LCA is spot on the same as the old one 
• I noticed that the UCA has been lowered by 1" which I believe is a common thing to do and would not in itself be a cause of the camber
• the existing UCA is 10.5" long measured across the top from the rear edge to the front edge.  Anybody got a 65 UCA to compare this to?

[li]the Granada (I assume?) spindles that came off have the axle at greater than 90 degrees to the upper and lower control arm mounting points.  As far as I can eyeball on the car, the Mustang ones I have (and I can only take the seller word that they are the same as a 65 Mustang's) appear to have the axle at 90 degrees to the mounts.  Putting this on the same control arms would therefore result in more negative camber
[/li][/list]


Where this leaves me is agreeing with Allan that the upper control arms are probably shorter than standard Mustang items.  I have included a pic of mine just in case anybody can pick what they are.  My research has led me to believe that there are different length standard Ford UCA's but I have not been able to get part numbers/models etc to verify.  I would like some sort of proof on this before I spend AUD$600 on new UCA/Spring seats.  Also, all of the local parts suppliers are over in the US of A buying stuff so I cannot get them.  If I have to buy some I shall probably get Scott Drake stuff from CJ's.

Anybody know about the UCA length variances?  Especially our esteemed American friends??

[BAC]

I noticed that the UCA has been lowered by 1" which I believe is a common thing to do and would not in itself be a cause of the camber

The "Shelby drop" does alter camber, but it's my understanding it makes static (i.e. unloaded) camber more positive.

[Allan S]

I have the exact same problem with the same SSBC kit and my brakes do not lock up. She does, however, pull up o.k (not what I would call great, though).

The disc / drum cars had a distribution block with a built in 'residual pressure' valve to keep 7-10psi in the rear lines to eliminate 'take up' on the rears. Some cars that have had unusual conversions (like falcon / granada) have had these valve removed and the take up on the rear greatly affects the stopping.

To see if this is an issue, drive a short distance with the hand brake on a bit and see if it pulls up A LOT better (mine did). If so, you may need to fit a residual pressure valve to the rear circuit. You'd think those drums on the back shouldn't make much difference, and that the car should pull up fine on front discs only, but it makes a big difference.

[barnett468]

I have the exact same problem with the same SSBC kit and my brakes do not lock up. She does, however, pull up o.k (not what I would call great, though).

The disc / drum cars had a distribution block with a built in 'residual pressure' valve to keep 7-10psi in the rear lines to eliminate 'take up' on the rears. Some cars that have had unusual conversions (like falcon / granada) have had these valve removed and the take up on the rear greatly affects the stopping.

To see if this is an issue, drive a short distance with the hand brake on a bit and see if it pulls up A LOT better (mine did). If so, you may need to fit a residual pressure valve to the rear circuit. You'd think those drums on the back shouldn't make much difference, and that the car should pull up fine on front discs only, but it makes a big difference.

he has another thread on his brakes . . it might be more helpful if you post on that . . as far as the things you mentioned, they only adjust the balance of the brakes they do not increase overall pressure . . his prob has been that neither end locks up but he hasnt had a chance to test it properly since the repair due to the front end prob.

to properly nled the ssbc calipers, they must be removed.
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[barnett468]

LOL...well i don't know how "esteemed" i am but something looks jacked on your suspension for sure . . i will try to look at it a bit more in a while if i get time.

shaunp might have all the measurements you need if you want to pm him but it looks like you have the control arm length measurement . . is this correct?

as far as parts go, gerace restoration in adelaide will have them and mustangs of melbourne should also.



.

[barnett468]

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your spring perch is jacked but you might have noticed that , , i havent had time to read everything.

it looks like the arm is not parallel enough with the frame . . look at the new lower mounting holes for the arm . . they should both be the same distance down from the originals . . if they are not, you need to correct it so they are . . the shelby drop id exactly 1".

obviously this wont help your camber prob but its something to look at and correct if needed.
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[xpconnor]

It might just be the photo but the spindle looks funny to me. Is there an extra whole in the upright section or am I looking at it wrong?

[shaunp]

Is the issue that you cant get enough shim in it or what, or just that you have had a proper alignment on it yet.

[mk1_oz]

Xp - the photo of the spindle does have a hole in the top section but that is the Granada one

Shaun - unbolting the Granada spindles and bolting on the mustang ones has resulted in way too much negative camber. I have not tried to add more shims at this time but if i did i estimate i would end up with close to 1/2" of shims which barnet says is way too much.

The pic of my front suspension was taken from the side and high which may be making things look more cock eyed than it is.  Gerace restorations are closed for 2 weeks so may have to goto MOM for parts.

[barnett468]

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if the car is settled and you have more and your tire tilts in on top, it sounds like your suspension mounts are out of spec like the shock tower is pushed in or something.

ok, no i didn't say that 1/2" is way to much although it is a little more than normal, but if it requires more than that it is an indicator that maybe your shock tower is collapsing inward a little . . i have seen them with around 3/4 inch of shims which is more than it should be but it didnt pose a problem . . as long as the threads protrude beyond the end of the nut by 1 mm, you are fine . . i have seen them with the threads below the nut by maybe 4 mm which i wouldn't recommend doing.

i would also say that if it had only 1/4 inch of shims, it would be unusual, so if you can fix it with 1/2" of shims then by all means that is what i would do and be done with sob.

tony gerace is probably over here right now . . we would hang out while he was over here and go to the sushi bar for dinner and get hammered but i haven't had the time to see him for the last few years.