260 Windsor Rebuild

[barnett468]

60L

there should be a C before the 6 and sometimes a letter after the 4th digit . . i dint have my book here but with the 1.33 on the bowl and numbers on the base it is a 1966 autolite 390 carb of some sort.

[Ford Compact 1963]

thanks.

so he is not going to rebuild it?

does it shift soft into second?

you obviously do not have a mustang so what do you have?

if he is a good tranny guy he will know exactly what i am talking about . . my experience with tranny guys is that most are a bit testy/grumpy and get annoyed easily, lol.


as far as the engine stuff goes, believe me it is nothing exotic . . it is all box stock parts . . it just looks overwhelming to you because it is a long list and you aren't familiar with engine stuff . . if you show this to any builder, they will say "ok where is the hard part?".

if you order the parts yourself it will cost you less.

Ok will show list tomorrow to micks motor sports

[Ford Compact 1963]

Shaun is champion and well noted. Thanks mate

I will know more tomorrow after seeing two builders. Will show them the list.

[barnett468]

I will know more tomorrow after seeing two builders. Will show them the list.

ok, just kind of a suggestion, especially if you dont personally know these builders . . some [most] builders i know are a bit grumpy and dont really want to listen to what the customer has to say . . they simply want to build the engine "their way".

i can almost guarantee you that most will say that it is not worth getting a 302 crank, and rods just to increase the engine size by 10 cubic inches, however, i can guarantee you that it will in your case and it is a good option to achieve your goal . . i have built a LOT of these.

here's the deal...in general, if one wants "more power" and does not want to change the gears or loose their existing bottom end performance, the main options are listed below . . you can pick any single option or combination of options . . notice that a bigger camshaft is NOT on the list.

a. increase the engine size.
b. install a supercharger or blower.
c. run nitrous.
d increase compression.


bottom line, if you want anything on the list including the 302 crank and rods, don't let them talk you out of it and maybe consider using the builder that is the least resistant to doing what you want.


ADDITIONAL BUILD ITEMS


BALANCE ENGINE

be sure to do this because it will likely vibrate if you dont . . do the flywheel/flexplate and crank damper with it also.


CRANK DAMPER

yours is 50 years old so the rubber is getting old so i would buy a new one from pioneer, durabond or summit racing

[barnett468]

.
hey i have great news if you stroke it . . i kept digging and found some hypereutectic pistons for the same engine as the others i posted but they are around $260.00 usd LESS . . your engine builder will need to determine what the volume of the in the top of them is so he can mill your heads the correct amount to get the correct compression but this is easy to do . .  they are somewhere around 13 cc's just like the other ones.

the "standard" pistons below are .011 inches bigger than a stock 260 . . this means that your engine builder can likely simply hone your cylinders out to size . . he will need to measure the wear on them first to be sure . . if this is the case, your engine will be easier to cool and you will save maybe $75.00 because he will not have to bore it too. 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128h-std
 
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128h-5mm


these are the same pistons as the ones above except they have a special low friction coating on them which is nice and for just $15.00 more, i would be buying these instead.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128hc-std

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128hc-5mm

[Ford Compact 1963]

Thanks Pal! You were right they want to do it their way ! Arrogant so I said f##k it and left.

So much to take in and who to trust is issue

[shaunp]

Thanks Pal! You were right they want to do it their way ! Arrogant so I said f##k it and left.

So much to take in and who to trust is issue

It will be fine just have them fit a small cam and I'd fit 351 valves when they do the ULP conversion shouldnt cost much more. Its just a stock windsor its a no brainer. These shops do modern multi  valve multi cam engines, wont be an issue for a stockish build. Dont over think it.

[barnett468]

.
ok well that is a major bummer . .  they may be very good builders but im guessing by your comments that they were more than grumpy, lol . . i can tell you this, i am not, nor do i claim to be, the best or most knowledgeable engine builder in the world, however, i have been building engines and repairing and restoring vintage cars for 42 years so i did learn a few things during that time . . i was also partners in the biggest mustang shop in the western us for around 20 years, and in fact, glenn from this forum was there and saw the shop . . we worked on several cars a day there so we saw a lot of things that many others did not.

anyway, in general, my attitude is this, most customers don't know what they really need or what the best, or highest quality parts are etc, and it is my job as a business owner to be polite and courteous to them and explain their options so they understand why i am suggesting the things i am because this is not only the right thing to do, it is also the intelligent thing to do . . this is because if i come across with an arrogant or better than they are attitude, they might just tell me to f off and walk out and take their money and their business elsewhere, and i am not rich enough that i can afford to have that happen . . also, in my business, i rely heavily on repeat customers and word of mouth advertising, where someone might say to their friends that have vintage cars or people at a car show etc, "hey, i went  to this shop and they didn't treat like a moron and my car runs great now.". i am also a customer when i go somewhere to buy things, so i expect to be treated and talked to in a courteous manner and not made to feel like i am a moron even though i might be.

an engine build is a huge deal that is a lot of trouble and money, and its often being done on a car that the customer loves, so i think people should have a builder that makes them feel like they care [even if they really dont], and whom the customer is not afraid to ask questions of or come see the work being done . . hell, in our shop we not only let people watch us work, we often let customers work on their own cars and use our tools to do so.

 

[barnett468]

.
just curious , it sounds like they really pissed you off, so if you want, without mentioning their names, exactly what was it they said that annoyed you so much.  . . there is certainly nothing wrong with the quality of any of the parts on that list.

[Auslayne]

'. . hell, in our shop we not only let people watch us work, we often let customers work on their own cars and use our tools to do so"

Mate I applaud your great advice and awesome customer service but can I suggest you might want to rethink your workshop policy. Or at least check with your insurance company- have seen some successful businesses destroyed (through litigation) from seemingly trivial mishaps. (and serious accidents)
Sadly it's a reflection of the world we live in.

Cheers-
Layne

[barnett468]

'. . hell, in our shop we not only let people watch us work, we often let customers work on their own cars and use our tools to do so"

Mate I applaud your great advice and awesome customer service but can I suggest you might want to rethink your workshop policy. Or at least check with your insurance company- have seen some successful businesses destroyed (through litigation) from seemingly trivial mishaps. (and serious accidents)
Sadly it's a reflection of the world we live in.

Cheers-
Layne

sadly i agree . . this is in the us and there are a lot of sue happy people that don't want to assume responsibility for their own stupidity but we kind of filter those types out and don't let the others do anything dangerous and our floors were kept clean so no one would slip etc.

[Ford Compact 1963]

Ok gents. As new title says. What do you think ? Can I be guided of parts to get to do this ?

[barnett468]

Ok gents. As new title says. What do you think ? Can I be guided of parts to get to do this ?

i don't understand your question.

if you are asking if you can build this on your own i would guess no . . its a lot more complicated and technical than pulling your engine and even if we describe the process, its hard to execute . . there may be helpful videos on it if you want to look and see if its too intimidating for you.

as far as parts goes theres not much to add to the lists that i can think of and you still need the parts machined.

[Ford Compact 1963]

i don't understand your question.

if you are asking if you can build this on your own i would guess no . . its a lot more complicated and technical than pulling your engine and even if we describe the process, its hard to execute . . there may be helpful videos on it if you want to look and see if its too intimidating for you.

as far as parts goes theres not much to add to the lists that i can think of and you still need the parts machined.

Ok well scrap DIY engine build.
I want to gather all my parts to take to builder. I would like to build it back to factory HOWEVER while engine is stripped add some goodies and this is where I need help.
I have a new Airtrex water pump to go in but also want new fuel pump new oil pump and full gasket set. Does this make sense ?

[shaunp]

Ok well scrap DIY engine build.
I want to gather all my parts to take to builder. I would like to build it back to factory HOWEVER while engine is stripped add some goodies and this is where I need help.
I have a new Airtrex water pump to go in but also want new fuel pump new oil pump and full gasket set. Does this make sense ?

Basic rebuild job just let the reco shop do it, they will get the parts cheaper then you can, you are likly just wasting your time and theirs. Just have them convert the heads to ULP, oil pump is like $50, if you are leaving it stock just leave them to do it and give it back, they will have access to new camshafts  if you want a mild torque cam fitted. I would assume the bill will be around $3k, the heads will be around $1000-1200 to do, $1000 to machine the rest of the engine rest of the parts and assembly labour would be another $1000, its never going to make alot of power, so just have them reco it basically stock save for ULP conversion on the heads and a small torque cam, in this case even a generic Dynotec cam would be fine, it will need a new cam for sure, anything else is a waste of money in this engine. You'll find just rebuilt with some compression it will go much better. Its really not cost effective to do anything else with it. Tell them you want Moly rings though.

[Ford Compact 1963]

Basic rebuild job just let the reco shop do it, they will get the parts cheaper then you can, you are likly just wasting your time and theirs. Just have them convert the heads to ULP, oil pump is like $50, if you are leaving it stock just leave them to do it and give it back, they will have access to new camshafts  if you want a mild torque cam fitted. I would assume the bill will be around $3k, the heads will be around $1000-1200 to do, $1000 to machine the rest of the engine rest of the parts and assembly labour would be another $1000, its never going to make alot of power, so just have them reco it basically stock save for ULP conversion on the heads and a small torque cam, in this case even a generic Dynotec cam would be fine, it will need a new cam for sure, anything else is a waste of money in this engine. You'll find just rebuilt with some compression it will go much better. Its really not cost effective to do anything else with it. Tell them you want Moly rings though.

Sean why so down on the 260 ?

[shaunp]

I'm not down on it but there is little point trying to make it much faster, just make it new is what I'm saying, like it was back in 63 but so it will run and last, on un leaded, if you want it faster put a roller cam 302 in it with a C4. Just reco it and leave it or you are just murdering your money, is my point, its not cost effective, you want to keep the car pretty original which is fine, so just do that.

[barnett468]

.
he's just trying to get you the best bang for your buck . . if you use stock heads and put 4k into a 260 and 4k into a 302, the 260 might gain 50 hp but the 302 might gain 100 plus it has maybe 30 more to start with . . if you do the build i suggested, it will have a very noticeable increase in power, but building a 302 is a bit more practical if you want more power, however, you still have to buy the 302 core engine, therefore, it's not really going to be the same total price for both engines anyway.

since you want to keep the orig matching motor and want iron heads or the orig heads, you should do that and simply know that the build i suggested will not turn it into a tire roasting monster . . it will do exactly what i said it will, nothing less and nothing more . .  as long as you are happy with that and are happy with what it will cost you to achieve that goal then that is what i would do.

heck someone here already offered you a crank if you want to go that way, so  that challenge may have been resolved, however, i would still check for an early 302 crank at crank shops so you can use the same flex plate and same type crank damper.

if you don't do the mini stroker and just do a basic rebuild, then i would do as i and shaun suggested, which is increase your compression and install a small cam . . in your case i would use a comp xe256h then advance it 4 degrees on the crank with the adjustable timing chain . . this will give you a slight increase in power that will be noticeable if you are paying attention to it but it won't be an "omg, i definitely feel more power now." moment . . that's the best i can explain n it.

[barnett468]

Ok well scrap DIY engine build.
I want to gather all my parts to take to builder. I would like to build it back to factory HOWEVER while engine is stripped add some goodies and this is where I need help.
I have a new Airtrex water pump to go in but also want new fuel pump new oil pump and full gasket set. Does this make sense ?

the gasket set is mandatory with an engine rebuild . . the water pump and fuel pump are food ideas . . buy a carter fuel pump.

if you wanted some experience, you could probably install the heads, lifters, push rods and intake yourself with some guidance, however, unlike last time when removing the engine, you would need to follow the instructions exactly as written step by step or you might f it up . . there is no point in taking a lot of time to write instructions if you don't follow them.

[shaunp]

302's are dime a dozen, I got given a roller cam 302 yesterday from a 90's falcon ute, that has a noise in it like a dead lifter.

[barnett468]

302's are dime a dozen, I got given a roller cam 302 yesterday from a 90's falcon ute, that has a noise in it like a dead lifter.

wow, they are at least $500.00 in the us for any year and thats if you are lucky and a standard bore pre 50 oz 302 is basically non existent and commands more than that.

[shaunp]

wow, they are at least $500.00 in the us for any year and thats if you are lucky and a standard bore pre 50 oz 302 is basically non existent and commands more than that.

Buy a whole Falcon for $500. $500 for a good runner. If he didnt have a 5 bolt auto, I;d just stick a $500 roller cam in it with a carb.

[shaunp]

The other thing to consider is this is a 53 year old engine, it may have been rebuilt before and may already be 30 over, in which case it maybe toast anyway, then a 302 is the best option, other then a Saturday night special job on the 260 (a la Superformance in the 80's hey Glen). If this block is toast you'll be lucky to find another 5 bolt block.

[GLENN 70]

Saturday night special ,well that's Chevy talk  .  In the USA its not a engine is it mike    .  That 260 block most likely wont rebore at all if its not std bore size now and even if it is you will be lucky .

[Ford Compact 1963]

The other thing to consider is this is a 53 year old engine, it may have been rebuilt before and may already be 30 over, in which case it maybe toast anyway, then a 302 is the best option, other then a Saturday night special job on the 260 (a la Superformance in the 80's hey Glen). If this block is toast you'll be lucky to find another 5 bolt block.

All standard original 60 thou miles on this 63