HELP NEEDED URGENTLY

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Author Topic: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY  (Read 13449 times)

Offline GEOFF289

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HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« on: July 19, 2014, 09:48:18 am »
Hi Everyone. I am in dire need of help getting my new motor to run.

As a rank amateur I have spent the last couple of months replacing the tired 289 in my 66 with a reco roller cam 5.0. It is a basic engine and came complete with a new Holley 600 and aluminium manifold.. Earlier this week I got to the point where I was ready to start it up, time it, do some basic carby adjustments for the time being and check that all was well with the new trans I also put in. Once that was done the idea was to get it towed to an exhaust place to get it hooked up to the JBA shorty headers I bought and installed.

I compensate for being a mechanical mug by extensive research and triple checking everything I do. So triple checked everything - oil pressure primed, dizzy and rotor at TDC on cyl 1 on comp stroke, plug leads all correct for firing order, all wiring etc. The moment of truth arrived. Should also say that I do have 12 volts continuous to the coil with engine running as this was done for the Pertronix in the old motor, I have verified this with a multi meter. After a bit of mucking around I got it to fire up but it kept dying unless I held the throttle open. Turned the idle screw up quite a bit and it would stay running. Without any muffling it was loud but seemed happy and running on all 8. Even though its a roller cam I figured it wouldn't hurt to let it warm up at what was about 1,500 revs. Verified thermostat had opened, temp gauge happy so started to turn the idle down and it died only  hundred revs or so less. This kept repeating, it will run apparently happily at about 1,500 but turn it down and it dies.

I did some reading and then checked no fuel blockage (new mechanical pump, new hoses from inner fender to pump and pump to carb, new in line filter, pulled that and blew air through the filter, only fuel came out, also checked little gauze filter inside carb inlet, clean as a whistle), started it again and checked for vac leak by spraying at all likely points, also put a rag over carb to see if reducing air flow had any effect - no indication of any vac leak. Note that all of this is at about 1,500 revs, not normal idle.

Yesterday I tried the other thing my reading suggested that maybe the idle mixture was too lean and wouldn't sustain a normal idle speed. I richened up both sides but no change, it still dies when I turn the idle speed down.

Throughout all of this putting a timing light on it hasn't been very illuminating, pardon the pun. At about 1,500 revs the light showed about 30 degrees advance but because I couldn't get it to idle at a more correct 700 or so I don't know what the static timing is. However, I did have to advance it from TDC to get it going and by measuring the circumference of the dizzy and the distance I rotated it from the TDC mark I made, allowing for dizzy turning at half crank speed, some quick maths suggests I'm around 8-10 degrees which should be in the ballpark. Obviously this is not very precise but gives a general indication. Vac advance disconnected and plugged.

So that's my sad story. It does run with that high idle and revs up nicely from there but won't idle normally so I don't think there is any component not functioning but something needs adjusting and figuring out what is beyond me. I have a rising sense of panic now as my daughter's wedding is approaching and the car is part of it so I HAVE to get it going and run it in and sort out any little issues before that. Only thing I haven't looked into is stale fuel. The car hasn't run since April, I did put some of that stabilizer stuff in the tank back then so I would have thought it was OK but I'll drain it and replace it if anyone thinks this could be the issue.

Any and all advice will be very gratefully received. If anyone with more skills and knowledge than me wanted to volunteer to come over and get it going for me as soon as possible I would set a new benchmark for gratitude. I am in Mulgrave in the SE suburbs of Melbourne. Happy to pay in money, beer or whatever might suit. I am getting desperate.

Offline MILD67

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2014, 01:36:23 pm »
Hi. Give Paul from cve a call on 0447351460.
He is in carrum downs and will have you sorted out in no time.

Look at your car. Now back to mine. Now back to yours. Now back to mine. Sadly, yours isn't mine. But if you stopped buying dodgy cars and bought an 67, yours could be like mine. Look down. Back up. Where are you? ...You're on MOCA, reading the signature your signature could be like! Anything is possible when your car looks like my car...................

Offline evan

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2014, 02:48:22 pm »
I'd still keep looking for a vacuum leak. Are you 100% sure you don't have an unplugged port on the carb or manifold? Vacuum line to the modulator on the tranny? Brake booster connections? PCV?

Come to think of it, I had a similar problem when I did a cam swap on mine. Turned out I had the dizzy 180 degrees out. So much for all my 'checking'. Fortunately I was able to keep the revs up to run the cam in.

Evan.

Offline MACH_ONE

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2014, 04:30:29 pm »
I would double check your dizzy is correctly in the right position and that the the compression is at the top stroke and that the rotor is pointing at no1 if all good then............

Do you have a VAC Gauge? If not go to Repco and buy one for about 40 bucks....

The vac gauge is your best friend, this can tell you what your mixes are doing it can also time your dizzy without a timing light. Once you connect the Vac gauge to the left hand side bottom of the full port on the carby your car should be sitting between 18 and 22 hg. Any Erratic changes such as needle is bouncing around you can go to this link below it will tell you whats happening...your Vac needle should be steady.

If you bought the carby new it should already be close to where the idle and mixture screws are set...with Holleys if you adjust 1 mixture screw you must adjust the other, a vac gauge will help with this check the link below.
 
How To Diagnose Common Engine Problems With A Vacuum Gauge
How To Adjust The Idle Mixture Screws On Holley Carburetors


To check for vac leak around the manifold you can either simply spray carby or brake cleaner or CRC where the manifold meets the heads and the front and back of the manifold..if there is a leak the RPM will change...or you can simply use a cut off piece of garden hose and put your ear on the hose and listen for any leaks around the manifold and again the Vac gauge can also diagnose vac leaks.


If you have an electric choke make sure it is opening and make sure you have wired it correctly ( it needs to be wired to an accessory wire DO NOT USE THE COIL +)

also check PCV is connected to the right port and not faulty.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 04:39:06 pm by MACH_ONE »
My other car is a Mustang ( ok I lied this one cost me enough)

Offline Macka

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2014, 04:37:10 pm »
This might be a bit left field. 

You said it firing ok on all 8 cylinders?  Do you have the right firing order...

firing order to match the camshaft?  351 not 289/302,  just wondered.

Offline GEOFF289

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2014, 08:29:19 am »
Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. I will check all those things again. Just to rule a couple of things out - it has a manual trans so if it is a leak I haven't found it won't be a trans modulator line, firing order is 13726548.

Carb is new and came fitted to the engine. Manual choke ie cable.

Evan, while I've admitted to being a mechanical mug, I can't understand how it would run at all with the dizzy 180 out? Every cylinder would be firing at the top of the exhaust stroke wouldn't it? I have checked it's right with both the finger test and with the rocker cover off observing the valve action but, as you say, so much for all the checking so I will check again.

I do have a vacuum gauge and will see what that tells me.

But if I have no success in the next couple of days I will probably give the fella Mild 67 recommended a call. As I said, I am getting desperate.

Thanks again and I look forward to further suggestions.

Offline jiffy

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2014, 09:20:03 am »
It would never run 180 out so ignore that. It takes three things to run - air, fuel & spark.
Idle at 1500 with a timing light. See if spark disappears before motor dies as you wind down idle. It's tricky but you should be able to do it. If it's not that then rig up a bottle with fuel that you can squeeze a tiny stream of fuel down the venturies as it's running then have someone else turn down idle, see if you can keep it running using the squeezey bottle of fuel. If you can, it's a carb/vacuum problem.
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Offline shaunp

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2014, 09:24:29 am »
Does it have an electronic dissy, does it have 12v.

Offline GEOFF289

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2014, 09:45:30 am »
Hi Shaun, yep electronic dizzy and as per my original post I do have 12 volts to it with engine running.

Offline shaunp

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2014, 10:49:40 am »
If you can't find an airleak or any other fault with timing etc, I would pull the carby off and see if the primary butter flies are still over the idle transfer slots, if they are not it's not going to use the idle circuit of the carb it will just stall. You may need to on pen the secondaries a bit and close the primaries so that they then engage the idle circuit. There is an idle stop grub screw for the secondaries' under the carb.

Offline evan

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2014, 12:14:25 pm »
Evan, while I've admitted to being a mechanical mug, I can't understand how it would run at all with the dizzy 180 out? Every cylinder would be firing at the top of the exhaust stroke wouldn't it? I have checked it's right with both the finger test and with the rocker cover off observing the valve action but, as you say, so much for all the checking so I will check again.
Sorry mate, I neglected to mention that I had to rotate the dizzy to get it to run......just! The leads weren't long enough to get it where I wanted it though but good enough to run the cam in. Bear in mind that this was 8 years ago.

Evan.

Offline GEOFF289

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2014, 05:11:44 pm »
Thanks Evan. Appreciate your input. I haven't done anything with it over the weekend as without the exhaust hooked up it isn't very neighbourly, I'll get back to it during the week.

I've been thinking about everyone's suggestions and hit up google to understand Shaun's point about idle transfer slots which were news to me but now I understand. It's a brand new carb but I guess you never know. I may have to look into that if nothing else works.

In re this:

Idle at 1500 with a timing light. See if spark disappears before motor dies as you wind down idle. It's tricky but you should be able to do it. 

I have spark just cranking it without starting the engine, I've verified this with an in line spark tester, so it doesn't seem likely the spark is disappearing as I turn the idle speed down, does it? Anyway, I'll give this and everything else a try.

Any further ideas gratefully received.

Offline shaunp

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2014, 05:18:40 pm »
Thanks Evan. Appreciate your input. I haven't done anything with it over the weekend as without the exhaust hooked up it isn't very neighbourly, I'll get back to it during the week.

I've been thinking about everyone's suggestions and hit up google to understand Shaun's point about idle transfer slots which were news to me but now I understand. It's a brand new carb but I guess you never know. I may have to look into that if nothing else works.

In re this:

I have spark just cranking it without starting the engine, I've verified this with an in line spark tester, so it doesn't seem likely the spark is disappearing as I turn the idle speed down, does it? Anyway, I'll give this and everything else a try.

Any further ideas gratefully received.

Its not uncommon to have to open the secondaries a bit to get the primaries back over the slots so they can pull some fuel in.

Offline shaunp

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2014, 05:23:17 pm »
Check the idle air bleeds are clear as well. They are the outside ones in the top of the primaries.

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2014, 05:50:42 pm »
I have just read this post ,I smashed my lap top but have a new one now  :pepper: anyway what dizzy are you running and does it have a vac advance unit on it,sometimes if you set it in the wrong place you can't get enough advance for the timing as it may hit somewhere .Have you tried advancing it up just by hand not a timing light .Other wise it hard to tell what's going on from sitting here . :smile01:

Offline GEOFF289

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2014, 09:06:03 am »
Thanks Glenn. I thought initially you smashed your laptop in frustration at bozos like me.

Yep vac advance and I think I know what you mean. Once I put the temp sender in I couldn't retard it from TDC due to physical interference but I can advance it and have just to get it to run at all.

Offline TimR67

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2014, 09:22:31 am »
Have you turned the dizzy til it hits to get it to run, but cant turn no more due to it touching engine? You may just have the dizzy one tooth out. Get it back to TDC no.1 compression and pull dizzy out then stab it back in one tooth around

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2014, 02:37:19 pm »
No I dropped the bloody thing .You need the set the dizzy up into a position that you have room to turn it for advance or retard .You just have to move your leads around to suit and get number 1 correct .

Offline GEOFF289

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2014, 04:02:15 pm »
Thanks to all who have made suggestions so far. I have tried everything suggested so far but no joy. Engine starts and runs apparently happily at about 1,500 and will rev up from there but I don't have to turn the idle down very far before it just stops and coughs back through the carb.

1. Putting a vac gauge on it indicates a steady reading right on 22 in. with no wavering - this is at the approx 1,500 revs that it needs to idle. I had already sprayed gallons of stuff everywhere looking for a vac leak. The gauge seems to confirm I don't have one.

2. Tried watching when the spark dies as I turn down the idle. I did this with an inline spark tester rather than trying to juggle the timing light. It's difficult to be sure but it seems to disappear at the exact instant the engine dies or possibly just before. Then when the engine has wound down it seems to run backwards just a smidge and coughs back through the carb. I can briefly see spark again at this running backwards point. However, it's difficult to be sure. It doesn't do this coughing routine if I turn it off with the key. As I said the other day, I have spark just cranking it so assumed that it wasn't the spark going away as the idle speed reduced that was causing the problem. What does everyone reckon the above indicates?

3. I took the carb off and checked out the idle transfer slots Shaun. All seems to be as it should be according to what I found on google so I didn't mess with it. I blew a low pressure stream of air down the idle air bleeds and it blew fuel out so I reckon it's clear there.

4. I don't have any physical interference advancing the timing from TDC. I just couldn't retard it to ATDC but I wouldn't want to be doing that would I? As I said before some measurement and maths roughly indicates I'm in the ballpark of 8-10 BTDC. I can advance it further, and have tried this but it runs rough and still won't idle at a normal speed and I can retard it all the way back to TDC but no further.

5. I haven't tried applying fuel to the venturis with a squeezy bottle as the vac test and check of the idle transfer slots isn't indicating anything amiss.

Any further ideas guys? Doing my head in.

Offline littlejohn

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2014, 07:04:12 pm »
Hi. Give Paul from cve a call on 0447351460.
He is in carrum downs and will have you sorted out in no time.

X2

Offline Dazzagta

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2014, 07:15:42 pm »
This might sound silly but I had a similar problem with my forklift, wouldn't idle... Had two mechanics look at it. Finally found the problem... I was the rocker cover breather hose, the little valve that connects from the rocker cover to the hose was broken....
You can only check

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2014, 07:23:32 pm »
You are running the right firing order not the old original one right .Have you tried blocking all vacuum hoses ,brake booster,PVC,the small vac port under carby  front bowl etc.Cam timing has not been changed has it .

Offline shaunp

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2014, 07:49:18 pm »
If it spits back through the carb it's lean assuming the firing order is correct. Exhaust back fire = rich, carb backfire =lean.

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2014, 07:52:37 pm »
It will do that also if you try and turn if off if the revs are still too high .

Offline shaunp

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Re: HELP NEEDED URGENTLY
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2014, 07:55:46 pm »
The other thing is are the valves adjusted correctly?