Can a t5 handle a 347 Windsor

[shelby_mustro]

Hey guys.

That time has come to upgrade the motor in my 65 mustang from a fairly standard 302w to a worked 347 Windsor. my issue is the t5 box behind it does anyone know if they can Handel the power of a 347?

I've seen some guys do the t56 what's involved with this conversion?

[mert]

Well... that would depend on what "worked" really means.  And how you will drive it..

For a run-of-the-mill 347 a T-5 is fine for most.  750+Hp pushed to the limit on the strip, maybe not...

The main benefit of the stroker is torque.  As you have more displacement more Hp is very possible, but gets into the $piral of rede$igning the entire engine, except the block.  And at real high Hp the trusty 289/302 block does show its weaknesses, as it just wasn't designed for monster Hp.

Define your build, desktop dyno it, and then you can get a better idea.  But you should be OK with "normal" stroker kits, or similar builds... assuming the box is in good condition.

[shaunp]

World class T5s can rated to  340ftbl of torque which is about what an injected 302 makes, a good 347 will make mid 400s in torque or more, depending on spec. In real terms it's how you drive it. Forget HP its the torque that breaks them. TKO boxes will take 600+ ftbls of torque & T56 magnums over 700. TKO an T56 needs the tunnel to be cut up, in real terms so does a T5 but they just hang them down lower at the back.

[shelby_mustro]

We'll the kit is a scat 347 cast crank I beam scat rods the pistons are je forged 30 over flat tops. Heads are aloy 52cc heads with 210 runners over sized chev valves

The cam I know was 1500 to 6800 107 lob centres it was a lumpy cam from memory.

Originally most of this stuff was for my Xl falcon but the 289 motor didn't hold up we'll I just bought the bottom end rebuilt of someone as a 289. so I took it back to be redone but I already have this stroker kit and the block only needs a hone.

My plan was just to put the old motor out of the Mustang into the falcon and have the new motor in the stang.

Shaun I know the t5 is very tite and because of the angle of the box to the drive shaft it has always caused me vibrations through the car it shits me but what can you do?

[shaunp]

You really have to cut the top out of the floor brace and add some extra meat on top to get them up where they should be. I know there are a lot of them in early cars but they don't fit correctly  in real terms without floor mods, and to my way of thinking if you have to cut the floor buy a real box like  TKO, or run a top loader. Really how much fuel do you save with an extra gear, not like it's a daily driver doing 20k a year.

With 52cc heads and flat tops you'll have too much compression mate I think.

[GEOFF289]

As well as all the good advice above, it should be understood that T5's ain't T5's to paraphrase the old Castrol ad. While as Shaun says they were available with up to 340 odd ft/lbs torque rating, those ones are very rare. At the other end of the scale they were as low as 240. The ones commonly used in early Mustangs are out of V8 Mustangs and are rated at 300.

Plenty of T5's out of 6 pack Falcons and Commodores on ebay etc but probably best avoided, most are rated at 265.

They can be rebuilt using internals from outfits like G Force to handle more than they did originally if you want to spend the $.

[shaunp]

When Holden started using them in commodores they would only fit them behind a 173s not a 202s, some a weak as. They got some stronger ones for the VK commodores and they then fitted them behind the EST 3.3 engines

[HEVEN67]

To cut it short, drive like grandpa and it will be fine, but! Yes BUT...Over 300hp at the wheels and generally the T5 wont handle it, keep slippery tyres on the rear so you got a weak link, putting 210 heads on a 347 are way too big and will kill the torque, that's my 2 bobs worth, and  by the way the gear changes on the TKO are way crisper than the T5, the change over is a little more involved and it aint for the faint hearted, the final result is worth the work.
luvhev
 

[shelby_mustro]

What's involved with putting a tko in? what mods do you have to do? and how much can you pick them up for? realy just want to build a good motor and box.

[shaunp]

So chuck away your 210 heads and buy some 185 AFRs or 190 11R  Trickflow heads. Use a comp cams 282 roller cam or Trickflow stage 2 cam, buy a new TKO, cut the tunnel so it fits and weld it back together. Or just put a top loader in it. Mert has a complete top-loader set up $1200 from memory.

Send the rotating assembly up to Xstatic balancing at Slack creek to have it balanced. Or if you want a correctly built engine that won't play up, bring your bits up to Woody at Fataz competition engines, he will throw away most of it except the scat kit crank and rods  and build you a 360 that will pin your years behind your head, day after day.

http://www.fataz.com.au/

[flatchat]

Give Mal Wood a call  -- he's the full bottle on all these gear boxes
Whats the obsession with the 347 ? --  using all that good gear on a stock OEM 8.2 deck block is actually a bad idea.
IMHO for a stock 302 block - 331 would be Max. unless you go for an after market Block (Dart etc)
otherwise just use a 351 donk
And with the after market block  why stop at 347 when you can go to 368   - 6L

[flatchat]

Well said Shaunp 

[shaunp]

Give Mal Wood a call  -- he's the full bottle on all these gear boxes
Whats the obsession with the 347 ? --  using all that good gear on a stock OEM 8.2 deck block is actually a bad idea.
IMHO for a stock 302 block - 331 would be Max. unless you go for an after market Block (Dart etc)
otherwise just use a 351 donk
And with the after market block  why stop at 347 when you can go to 368   - 6L

Exactly Dart block standard 2-1/8 bore, 360 cui and 100 thou left to bore, only way to fly. Got a 351 in the shed for sale ? not my engine but left over from a job, good runner.

[shelby_mustro]

So is this the tranny?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TREMEC-TKO-600-TRANSMISSION-FORD-WINDSOR-CLEVO-TCET4617-/160561026699?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item25622ed68b&_uhb=1

If you bought the box can you still use the t5 Bellhousing gear etc to hook the box up?

[shelby_mustro]

I'm pretty we'll all sorted with the other gear I'll just chuck it all to my engine guy and let him work it out.

[GEOFF289]

Yep, that's a TKO for a Ford and is the stronger one - the 600 refers to the ft/lbs it's rated for. You can't use the T5 bellhousing, the bolt pattern is different. Also note that 5th in this one is 0.82 ratio rather than 0.68 in the earlier TKO 500 TCET 4615 or 0.64 in  the alternative TKO 600 TCET 5008. So in 5th you'll only get 18% underdrive rather than 32 or 36.

Also, don't pay that much for it. Mal Wood, who as someone else said is the guru on these things, will sell you one for $3150.

[shelby_mustro]

It's the rest of the parts I need that worries me. On line to get all the other gear was another $2500 so it turned to a $5650 gear box pretty quick and I still need to cut my tunnel up with this box am I right? unless anyone has a second hand cheaper one,

[69ISH]

I don't understand why people who want an Overdrive or the car to be fuel efficient just don't use a "Gear Vendors Overdrive" behind there toploader or C4, the Overdrive is plenty strong enough and so are the boxes with no major modifications or cutting up your tunnel and a lot cheaper.

[cap70]

Whats the obsession with the 347 ? --  using all that good gear on a stock OEM 8.2 deck block is actually a bad idea.
IMHO for a stock 302 block - 331 would be Max. unless you go for an after market Block (Dart etc)

I had this issue when getting my engine done in australia everyone stocks parts for 347 build and it was going to cost more to get
it done as a 331. in the end i got a dart block from pavtek deeper bores avoid the possible piston tipping at bottom of stroke.
and go the afr 185 heads you will prob need the 72cc ones or as shaunp said your comp will be to high. mine actually measured 69cc
with valves in. i have 9.8 comp with -7cc dished pistons

[shaunp]

Just call Mal Wood or Geoff Dellow, both these guys will know and have what you need for the box. As for the engine 210 runner heads are no good for your build be ok on a 393, 408 but not a 347. Like I said you need heads around 185/190 and Roller cam with over 500 thou lift and 280 duration, Air gap manifold, min of 1 5/8 primary pipes on the headers.

Cheapest way to get a stronger box is to buy Merts Toploader.

[mert]

Love the drift. 

From "building up my engine, have the parts, can I use my T5" (the answer is yes....)

To..... throw it all away (well, you can keep the con rods....) and buy a dart block, new heads, new everything... and a TKO...  only a "minor" cost difference there!

So easy to spend (a lot of) someone else's money!

[flatchat]

That is my point, if you're doing a stroker --then start with a Quality block !
Unless you promise not to rev it past 3000 rpm, as I've seen a few stroked OEM s that have split the block length wise  (El Cheapo Cheater Racers)

----More good advise from Shaunp

[shaunp]

Love the drift. 

From "building up my engine, have the parts, can I use my T5" (the answer is yes....)

To..... throw it all away (well, you can keep the con rods....) and buy a dart block, new heads, new everything... and a TKO...  only a "minor" cost difference there!

So easy to spend (a lot of) someone else's money!

Mert,
 problem is Ryan's stuff often ends in tears  , he has miss mash of  Ebay bits that won't work correctly together with respect to the engine. Sure he can slap it all together but he won't get the result he is looking for and then the question will be why doesn't this work below 3500 rpm and will only run on alcohol or BP100 race fuel without pinging .  If he can't afford a TKO and is worried about the T5, cheapest option is a good TL that will bolt straight up, that's what they should have in them anyway I reckon, I don't see the need for an OD on car that doesn't get driven on the freeway everyday. The other cheapest short term option is to leave the T5 and see if it breaks then worry about it.

[GLENN 70]

Sell what you have that you need to change ,build a 363 with a dart block and go an auto ,4 speed or c4 ,depends on gear ratio in diff .With the HP  and torque of a 363/480 to 500hp you can run a 3.25 diff ratio so still good on hwy with the c 4 .  Ryan you have been in my 66 and it had 3.25 gears then and it put a smile on your face and thats a mild 347 /440 hp . Then up grade on exhaust  on your car. The cost will blow out tho , the 363 will cost around 12/13k or more depending on components  ,auto and converter etc 4k ,then diff depends on what you fit .20 grand .If manual , a  good fly wheel ,good clutch and the right box , a tremac , thousands .An auto will make the car drive nice not like a pig .Sit down and think what you want out of your car performance wise then talk to me and Shaun and we will work it out for you ,other wise you will waste your money and get nowhere .

[GEOFF289]

Back to the transmission. As we all know, what you can fit in an early Mustang is only limited by how much time and money you want to put into it. They've had everything from modular motors to blown coyotes to Chrysler hemis and even big block chevs (which obviously should be a hanging offence) put in them, along with T56 6 speed gearboxes.

If you're set on the TKO, yes you have to cut the tunnel. If you can get a second hand one you'd want to sure about it's condition as a full rebuild could push the total cost past the price of new one. I would have thought you could do better than $2,500 for the rest of the gear you need. I don't know what clutch actuation arrangement you have with the T5 at present or if you're using the original top loader bellhousing with an adaptor but much of a cable or hydraulic setup should be able to be re-used and you can get an adaptor to bolt the TKO up the top loader bellhousing. You will need a bellhousing (or adaptor plate), a crossmember and various ancillary bits and pieces. 

If you go with a TKO bellhousing I'd be getting that locally from Mal Wood, Dellow, CRS etc. as the shipping on a bulky item like that from the US will be steep. For the rest of the gear, I got the following last July for my T5 conversion from Modern Driveline delivered to my door for about $1,250 AUD. Prices for their TKO gear are pretty much the same. Dollar has weakened since then so it might be $1,400 or so now.

Hydraulic master and pedal linkage kit
Internal hydraulic slave
Crossmember
Trans mount
Hurst shifter, boot and knob
Pilot bearing
Speedo gear
Full nut and bolt kit to put it together

I guess you could consider just putting your new engine in and seeing how the T5 goes with your driving style. If it doesn't cope you haven't really lost anything but a bit of double handling. If it does, you're well ahead $ wise.