Engine question and advice

[GLENN 70]

HEY PASH SORRY 4 HOGGING THIS SPACE .

[shaunp]

Help him fitt some new tail light buckets in the vert a few weeks back, when he was down this way.

[DUNRITE66]

by the time you put a stroker into a 302 which you have to source anyway you will be up for approx 4-6k for a short motor with machining and balancing etc....by the time you add a decent set of alloys and all the rest of the gear you will hit 10k plus easy i would say..... if you buy a 351 or a 390 then the cubes are already there and you can still make 400hp with money to spare.... machining and balancing one of those will only cost you no more than $1500.... even if you have to upsize pistons and do the bores its still cheaper than a 347 stroker short.... if you are on a budget then just buy a stock 351/390 and get it in the car and running till you are ready for some engine upgrades.... if the big block 390 is to tight a fit then go with the 351 and you can always stroke later to 400 plus cubes.... fits nice and has a heap of torque and hp depending on how far you want to go with it.... 5 cents worth with change...

[Ash]

Not sure if this is still available, but it may be of interest to some of you guys. It was in this weeks paper.

[GLENN 70]

Thanks dunrite66 ,thats what i said earlier ,a 351w fits nice ,400 plus hp and rebuilt c 4 cheaper than a 347 . sorry not a fan of the 390 motor ,sure stroked is a different story but big dollars ,and does not fit so nice .If it was a factory s code sure but its a c code .

[shaunp]

You'll still want some alloy heads on the 351 though, so you really just saving the stroker assembly. On a LHD car you can buy off the shelf pipe but not RHD.

[GLENN 70]

Yes a good brand name set of alloy heads .

[Pash]

Everyones input has been great and i didnt mind the thread hijack lol


Im still going through prices of parts for 2 setups.

Option 1 = virgin 302 block stroked to a 347 + C4

Option 2 = Dart 302 block stroked to 363 + something capable of 600HP (C4 Stage 2 or 3, AODE, AOD)

Obviously option 2 is going to cost more than 10k and will most likely be 15K roughly.

im doing all the work myself except for machining and porting heads.

though a 351 is cgood bang for the buck im not to keen on a 351 or a 390

A big deciding question will be if a 363 with AODE need to be engineered????

[Brumby1]

Thought about a 347 crate?  Good value for money.
Jack

[shaunp]

Everyones input has been great and i didnt mind the thread hijack lol


Im still going through prices of parts for 2 setups.

Option 1 = virgin 302 block stroked to a 347 + C4

Option 2 = Dart 302 block stroked to 363 + something capable of 600HP (C4 Stage 2 or 3, AODE, AOD)

Obviously option 2 is going to cost more than 10k and will most likely be 15K roughly.

im doing all the work myself except for machining and porting heads.

though a 351 is cgood bang for the buck im not to keen on a 351 or a 390

A big deciding question will be if a 363 with AODE need to be engineered????

How would they know it was a 363, it would just look like a 302.

[GLENN 70]

Watch those crate engines some are crap ,maybe 363 is the go 500 hp ,the heads are were the hp is made .There are heads and heads ,go the right brand .Dont forget the auto ,a c4 will hold more hp and fit a trans co stage 2 shift kit no other brand ,you wont need a over drive box with that sort of hp .The diff is next in line and gearing, it snow balls from wanting a bit more hp to where do you stop . 400/450 real  is heaps for the street ,that will smoke the tyres ,most people think they have more hp than they realy have .My 66 has 550hp and thats to much for a street car .

[Macka]

the 351 and you can always stroke later to 400 plus cubes.... fits nice and has a heap of torque and hp depending on how far you want to go with it...

Thats what I did  with mine and won't look back now.  Less weight than a big block but just as much go and more than enough torque.

[Pash]

Glen, your so right it just snow balls. From thinking of building a good 347 it seems like its turning into a strong 363.

iv figured it out a Dart 363 with forged scat crank, forged hbeam rods, probe forgies, alloy head, crane gold rockers, lunati lifters, comp cam, 2.08/1.65 valves, torker 2 intake, 4 into 1 extractors and all the other bits and pieces complete under $8000. I have a 9 inch with oringinal 3.5 gears, just need a tru trac. I can buy a recod C4 with a stage 2 for $1000. Max build cost is about 12-15K. Should be good for 500hp but is a standard C4 going to cope?? Als race glides quoted me $2700 for a 600Hp C4

[GLENN 70]

No a std c 4 wont last ,and dont put on a torker there rev range is something like 3500/7000 or more ,i would go for a performer RPM airgap 1500/6500 then a 1/2 inch bakerlite spacer will keep carby real cool and bring the rev range up by 500 revs . And as i said go good heads ,AFRs ,trickflow ,even edelbrock performer RPMs ,not cheap ones ,your hp is in the heads .Remember a 363 you dont want to rev the hell out of it ,6200 rpm is enough .A 770 holley street advenger vac sec ,will work just nice  ,and a 2800 rpm hi stall conv .

[phaseautos]

glen sorry this is not directed at you, its a general thing, directed more at the sheep mentality a lot of aussies have

remember this, most big teams in racing use aussies, as our tech is way up there!

to continue:

you know it still beats me, why people recommend fitting a slipping clutch (hi stalls) to cars?

are you not better off getting, a well designed cam that allows good idle, yet still enough lift and duration for big top end power?

we are in a technical age, where this has been possible for the last 15-20 years

have a look a the lsx engine, its still a push rod engine, just good cam design factory (poor from some well known cam co's)

i have one making over 700hp idles at 950-1050 has a nice lope @ idle and drives like a corolla with the torque of a mack truck!

granted efi has a great part in this being possible!

some stall converters are well made and can cost over $1k.  they can also use external pumps to give variable stalls
(i admit even though being involved in trans builds since 1985 ive not kept up with converter design)
most are not, as such most just slip heating the fluid up, thus shortening trans life, wasting torque and fuel at the same time.
this is overcome in late model converters with lock ups installed (and then our brainless converter shops remove them in the name of performance)

it is true manufacturers engineers don't always get it right but more often than not they do! this is where we aftermarket shops with back yard budgets need to think hard to stay ahead!

as discussed with Pash

1 get the best flowing heads you can afford
2 get a roller cam gave him an idea of specs
3 get pedestal rockers that do not require guide plates
4 get the best tubes and intake you can afford for carby or efi
5 get your block checked (sonic, crack etc.)
6 go 347 as this is best value and the money saved is best spent above
7 get a c10 as its at least 40% stronger than a c4
8 build the c10 with extra h/d clutches and bands

fit it and enjoy it, as it will be above 500hp eyes closed done right
edit: just a video of whats possible with some thought process
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMFedWxvn3c

[GLENN 70]

Yes i agree with you guys completely ,but most bigger cams will need some sort of hi stall ,and yes latest cams will work well without a big converter ,but a good  2500/2800 brand conv will drive like a stock one , PASH  said he does want to drag race ,c10 is the box of cause to use aussies still call c10 autos c4s ,i know that but most dont .Dont forget we are talking 3.5 diff gears ,a tall tyre ,and a not so low 1st gear unlike a 700r4 .A 347 is a better choice ,363 i have not had anything to do with ,other than ford racing now only use not 347.I  am not a big fan of ford racing herd some horror stories when i have been in the usa .Poor old pash wanted to spend 10k ,400 or a little more hp a right combo 302 will do that .

[phaseautos]

Yes i agree with you guys completely ,but most bigger cams will need some sort of hi stall ,and yes latest cams will work well without a big converter ,but a good  2500/2800 brand conv will drive like a stock one , PASH  said he does want to drag race ,c10 is the box of cause to use aussies still call c10 autos c4s ,i know that but most dont .Dont forget we are talking 3.5 diff gears ,a tall tyre ,and a not so low 1st gear unlike a 700r4 .A 347 is a better choice ,363 i have not had anything to do with ,other than ford racing now only use not 347.I  am not a big fan of ford racing herd some horror stories when i have been in the usa .Poor old pash wanted to spend 10k ,400 or a little more hp a right combo 302 will do that .

ok while talking to him on the phone he did not mention future drag racing the only time i ever recomend stally's is if chasing 60' times to lower your et

[phaseautos]

Yes i agree with you guys completely ,but most bigger cams will need some sort of hi stall ,and yes latest cams will work well without a big converter ,but a good  2500/2800 brand conv will drive like a stock one , PASH  said he does want to drag race ,c10 is the box of cause to use aussies still call c10 autos c4s ,i know that but most dont .Dont forget we are talking 3.5 diff gears ,a tall tyre ,and a not so low 1st gear unlike a 700r4 .A 347 is a better choice ,363 i have not had anything to do with ,other than ford racing now only use not 347.I  am not a big fan of ford racing herd some horror stories when i have been in the usa .Poor old pash wanted to spend 10k ,400 or a little more hp a right combo 302 will do that .

ok while talking to him on the phone he did not mention future drag racing the only time i ever recomend stally's is if chasing 60' times to lower your et

edit: btw c10 and c4 are the same family but are different c10 and 9 have larger gearing and capacity for more clutches

[68pony]

Hi Pash
Mate sorry for not getting back to you, i lost your number and only now got your u2u i will respond to it soon but decided to say something here cause everyone seems to be the expert, forget what people here are saying it is cheaper to buy a 4r70w 4 speed auto with lock up converter if you get a 98 on box it will handle 500hp out of the box has a lock up converter, in third gear locks at 80kph in fourth at around 90kph but can be changed in the software, i have a 9 inch with 3.7's and at 70mph i'm doing 2200 rpm with a 3500 stall you guys need to get up to date and forget about c4's and c6's and what ever ,hevn67 has just bought a brand new 4r70w for 800 bucks US, computer and harness is around 550 bucks throttle positioning sensor is 80 bucks maybe a tad more now and comes with the hardware to bolt up to the carby, you will need to fabricate a cross member and may need to change the length of the tail shaft but if your going more hp then get a new one made anyway, you will need a yolk for the 4r70w no big deal these box's are dime a dozen over there, so you can have your big stall and cruise on the freeway with a locked converter without heating up your box and just a sqeeze of the gas and your gone without any converter flare, ive been running this set up for a few years now and the throttle responce is just amazing the kick down will jolt the fillings off your teeth and all this without the need to touch the stick also you have a switch for race mode where you can have a different map which will hold gears longer and increase the line pressure to shift gears harder and then switch back to street for a softer shift, ive done this conversion and retained the original shifter i have a  switch where i can turn the overdrive function off i also have a map for dyno tuning so the car won't kick down in drive from 40mph cmon guys lets get abit more serious there been fitting these box's to 60's mustangs for age's now in the states, also 1st gear 2.84 not 2.46 like c4 2nd gear 1.55 not 1.46 like c4 3rd 1 to 1 both and .70 overdrive. so my 3.7's is like a 4.11 diff in first.
Check out the TPS on side of carby.

Here are some other pics from underneath.

[shaunp]

That's the go if you want an auto for sure, If you are building a resto mod, you may as well have them driving nice, that's whole Idea.

[GLENN 70]

Poor Pash ,you just wanted to know what  engine to get so you could have 400 hp or a little more and put it down the strip sometimes . He had a 10 grand budget ,its easy to spend his money . Sure 4 speed autos are the go ,and really good on those long hwy runs ,but how far does pash want to go on this rebuild .Maybe just beef up the box you have now ,thats all i did and still going strong after 3 years behind my 347/440 hp ,and put it down the strip now and then and around lakeside raceway QLD  ,the only other thing i had to do was extend the breather up to the firewall so oil would not come out onto the extractors when backing off at 6500 revs , c 6 autos are big heavy hp sucking boxs ,not for small block engines . anyway thats enough from me ,every one will have there own ideas,good luck .

[phaseautos]

Poor Pash ,you just wanted to know what  engine to get so you could have 400 hp or a little more and put it down the strip sometimes . He had a 10 grand budget ,its easy to spend his money . Sure 4 speed autos are the go ,and really good on those long hwy runs ,but how far does pash want to go on this rebuild .Maybe just beef up the box you have now ,thats all i did and still going strong after 3 years behind my 347/440 hp ,and put it down the strip now and then and around lakeside raceway QLD  ,the only other thing i had to do was extend the breather up to the firewall so oil would not come out onto the extractors when backing off at 6500 revs , c 6 autos are big heavy hp sucking boxs ,not for small block engines . anyway thats enough from me ,every one will have there own ideas,good luck .

too true!!!

[68pony]

Poor Pash ,you just wanted to know what  engine to get so you could have 400 hp or a little more and put it down the strip sometimes . He had a 10 grand budget ,its easy to spend his money . Sure 4 speed autos are the go ,and really good on those long hwy runs ,but how far does pash want to go on this rebuild .Maybe just beef up the box you have now ,thats all i did and still going strong after 3 years behind my 347/440 hp ,and put it down the strip now and then and around lakeside raceway QLD  ,the only other thing i had to do was extend the breather up to the firewall so oil would not come out onto the extractors when backing off at 6500 revs , c 6 autos are big heavy hp sucking boxs ,not for small block engines . anyway thats enough from me ,every one will have there own ideas,good luck .

I disagree why spend $1500 on a box that he will not be happy with in the long run, just wait save a little more and get the whole package, i have driven with both box's and the old dinosaur box's can't compare and with the dollar still good jump on it now, i know of a couple of others who are going down this path,you can still retain the original shifter with some mods, this box will give you great fuel economy you can still run a high stall and have great drivability at freeway speeds ,can alter shift points with the press of your keyboard, i'm not spending his money this mod is more than affordable when you take into account to rebuild a c4 is around $1500 and $3000 for gear vendors which you have no controll over, paul hev67 just bought a brand new 4r70w for $800us and its coming over in a container for peanuts the rest of the components will be around $1200 mark ,to do the job any auto electrican can do the wiring.
my 2 cents worth