LHD on P plates

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Offline dalex

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LHD on P plates
« on: August 04, 2011, 11:16:06 pm »
This is the Vic rules as I understand, looking for others understandings of these.

Learners Permit - no prohibited vehicles.
Probationary (Red and Green) - no v8 vehicles
Left Hand Drive - ????

Offline Pinto Pete

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 11:26:35 pm »
think Frank70's been down this path Dale, might pay to check with him..
It is far easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission

Offline dalex

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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2011, 08:01:01 am »
Thanks Pete, I recall Frank70 had commented on this but could not find the post.

I searched and found this from Macka http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/viewthread.php?tid=13299&page=2#pid146337

Q4. Can a learner driver operate a Club Permit Vehicle?
A. Yes, subject to the normal rules for learner drivers.

If anyone know the rules for their state post it, so we have all this together.

Offline Ac_cobra

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2011, 08:20:16 am »
In Qld a P plater can do the posted speed e.g.: 110 kmh NSW a P plater can only do 80 kmh one to watch out for if you are crossing the boarder into NSW.
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Offline JT_1994

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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2011, 08:31:21 am »
I thought you could as i havnt found anything saying otherwise...
JT_1994 aka "Nixon"

Offline Frank70

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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2011, 11:56:50 am »
Yep I rang Vicroads about P platers and LHD vehicles and they said it was OK. I was actually I was a little surprised.

cheers,
Frank.

Offline dalex

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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 03:26:09 pm »
Quote from: Frank70 link=topic=15279.msg153752#msg153752
Yep I rang Vicroads about P platers and LHD vehicles and they said it was OK. I was actually I was a little surprised.

cheers,
Frank.


mmm, I have to agree a little surprising, turn 18 and jump into a LHD six right way. With a 289 you have to wait to 21.

Offline Macka

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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2011, 07:58:14 pm »
Gents,   (for Victoria)

Since this was posted I have been checking all of the new Acts and Regulations for Victoria regarding what a learner driver is restricted to.  After extensive reading I could only find the references in the
Road Safety (Drivers) Regulations 2009 - SECT 46

Which states;
Restrictions affecting learner drivers

46. Restrictions affecting learner drivers

(1) A learner driver must not drive a motor vehicle (other than a tractor) that is towing a trailer.

Penalty: 10 penalty units.

(2) A learner driver must not drive a motor vehicle on a highway (other than a tractor or motor cycle) unless an experienced driver is sitting beside the learner driver.

Penalty: 20 penalty units.

(3) A learner driver must not drive a tractor on a highway unless-

   (a)  the learner permit held by the learner driver authorises the learner driver to drive a car; and

   (b)  the tractor is being used solely in connection with agriculture, horticulture, dairying, pastoral or other similar pursuits, or commercial fishing; and

   (c)  the learner driver has had 10 hours of experience driving a tractor.

Penalty: 10 penalty units.


Sect 47 covers what they must do:
Learner driver must display L plates

47. Learner driver must display L plates


(1) A learner driver must not drive a motor vehicle (other than a tractor) on a highway unless-

(a)  an L plate is displayed facing out from the rear of the motor vehicle so that the letter "L" is clearly visible from a distance of 20 metres behind the vehicle; and

(b)  in the case of a vehicle other than a motor cycle, an L plate is
 displayed facing out from the front of the vehicle so that the letter
"L" is clearly visible from a distance of 20 metres ahead of the      vehicle.

Penalty: 3 penalty units.

(2) An experienced driver must not sit beside a learner driver, as required under regulation 46(2), if the learner driver is committing an offence against sub regulation (1).

Penalty: 3 penalty units.

(3) A person who is not a learner driver must not drive a motor vehicle on a highway if there is displayed facing out from the front or rear of the motor vehicle a plate that is, or that resembles, an L plate.

Penalty: 3 penalty units.

(4) Sub regulation (3) does not apply to a person who is instructing a learner driver and who is driving the motor vehicle solely for the purposes of instructing the learner driver.

(5) In this regulation-

L plate means a plate measuring approximately 150 millimetres by 150
millimetres that has a black letter "L" clearly marked on a yellow background.

It does not restrict the driver to drive RHD vehicles only.  It does require that an experienced driver be seated beside the learner driver.

It should still be stressed the risk to occupants of a LHD driven vehicles that care needs to be taken when conducting maneuvers such as turning across intersections or conducting overtakes where driver’s view may be restricted.  For a learner driver, this danger is increased.

The references from the AOMC are no doubt old and I will be approaching them to update their requirements on the Q&A page or give further advice.


Offline IGALOP

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2011, 08:56:54 pm »
My local Vic roads office say that LHD for P-Platers is definitely a no no!
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Offline niftywon

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2011, 09:10:51 pm »
there is a new 66 mustang cruising my town up here in qld but has NSW plates and a p plate on the screen. I havent had a good look but it is LHD, single exhaust so i think he is missing 2 cylinders ,

Offline boss69hogg

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2011, 09:10:56 pm »
Quote from: Ac_cobra link=topic=15279.msg153737#msg153737
In Qld a P plater can do the posted speed e.g.: 110 kmh NSW a P plater can only do 80 kmh one to watch out for if you are crossing the boarder into NSW.




Not quite right. In NSW 'L' platers are restricted to 80. Then they go to their P plates for 3 years. Their first year (Red P's) they are restricted to a max of 90 kmph, the next 2 years (Green P's) they can do 100 kmph as a max.

:bolt:
IMG

Offline Macka

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2011, 09:13:55 pm »
Johnno, I've spent my afternoon with my head in the books.

This is what I found regarding requirements on P plater vehicles.

Road Safety (Drivers) Regulations 2009 - SECT 56
Probationary prohibited vehicles

56. Probationary prohibited vehicles



(1) Subject to subregulation (2), for the purpose of regulation 57, a
probationary prohibited vehicle is a motor vehicle (other than a motor cycle)
that-

   (a)  has an engine with 8 cylinders or more; or

   (b)  has an engine that is turbocharged or supercharged (other than a
        diesel powered vehicle); or

   (c)  has an engine that has been modified to increase the vehicle's
        performance (other than a modification made by the manufacturer in the
        course of the manufacture of the vehicle); or

   (d)  is declared by the Corporation under subregulation (4)(a) to be a
        probationary prohibited vehicle for the purposes of this regulation;
        or

   (e)  has a modification declared by the Corporation under subregulation
        (4)(b) to be a high powered modification.

(2) A probationary prohibited vehicle does not include a vehicle declared by
the Corporation under subregulation (4)(c) not to be a probationary prohibited
vehicle.

(3) For the purpose of subregulation (1)(b), an engine is turbocharged if a
turbocharger is installed in the vehicle, whether or not it is otherwise
attached to the engine.

(4) For the purpose of this regulation, the Corporation, by notice published
in the Government Gazette, may-

   (a)  declare that a vehicle or class of vehicle is a probationary
        prohibited vehicle; or

   (b)  declare that a modification to a vehicle or type of modification to a
        vehicle is a high powered modification; or

   (c)  declare that a vehicle, other than a vehicle with an engine having 8
        cylinders or more, is not a probationary prohibited vehicle.


Road Safety (Drivers) Regulations 2009 - SECT 57
Offence to drive probationary prohibited vehicle

57. Offence to drive probationary prohibited vehicle



(1) The holder of a probationary driver licence must not drive a probationary
prohibited vehicle on a highway.

Penalty: 10 penalty units.



(2) Subregulation (1) does not apply to-

   (a)  the holder of a probationary driver licence who is driving a
        probationary prohibited vehicle-

   (i)  in the course of his or her employment and at the request of his or
        her employer; or

   (ii) subject to subregulation (3), in the course of his or her business or
        to or from the workplace of that business; or

   (b)  the holder of a probationary driver licence who is exempt from the
        requirement in subregulation (1) by the Corporation in accordance with
        subregulation (4); or

   (c)  a member of the police force who, in the course of duty, is driving a
        motor vehicle; or

   (d)  a person who is driving a probationary prohibited vehicle that is also
        a heavy vehicle if-

   (i)  that person does not hold a driver licence that authorises the holder
        to drive that motor vehicle; and

   (ii) he or she is the holder of a driver licence of another category; and

   (iii) a person who holds an Australian driver licence which is appropriate
        for the category of vehicle that is being driven is sitting beside him
        or her; and

   (iv) there is a driver under instruction plate affixed to, and facing out
        from, the front and rear of the vehicle.

(3) Subregulation (2)(a)(ii) applies only if an Australian Business Number is
in force in relation to the person's business.

(4) The Corporation, by written instrument, may exempt the holder of a
probationary driver licence from the requirement of subregulation (1) if-

   (a)  the vehicle has an engine that is-

   (i)  turbocharged or supercharged; and

   (ii) has a power mass ratio of less than 100 kW per tonne; or

   (b)  the vehicle has 4 or more seats, and has an engine that is-

   (i)  turbocharged or supercharged; and

   (ii) has a power mass ratio of 100 kW per tonne or more but less than 125
        kW per tonne; or

   (c)  the nature of that person's occupation, essential activities or family
        circumstances is such that compliance with the regulation would impose
        undue hardship on the person or the person's family.

Note Under regulation 36, the Corporation may impose conditions on a driver
licence issued to a person for whom a requirement has been dispensed with
under this regulation.

(5) In deciding whether or not to grant an exemption under subregulation
(4)(b), the Corporation must have regard to-

   (a)  the likely effect of the decision on safe, efficient and equitable
        road use in Victoria;

   (b)  the characteristics of the vehicle, including whether it is designed
        for sports performance rather than family use.

(6) In deciding whether or not to grant an exemption under subregulation
(4)(c), the Corporation must have regard to the likely effect of the decision
on safe, efficient and equitable road use in Victoria.

(7) In this regulation-

power mass ratio, in relation to a motor vehicle, means the ratio between the
power output of the engine of the motor vehicle at the time of its manufacture
including any additional output resulting from any modification to the motor
vehicle after its manufacture expressed in kilowatts and the unladen mass of
the motor vehicle expressed in tonnes.


No where in here does it mention it can't be a LHD vehicle.   I've emailed the AOMC for clarification or if they can give me a better reference.  

When I do i'll post it it up.  


Offline Macka

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2011, 09:17:04 pm »
Boss, yeah you have speed restrictions on your L & P platers.  

Do you guys have any other rules that I haven't covered or anything in relation to LHD vehicles?

Offline dalex

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2011, 09:39:40 pm »
I took my boy to get his Learners permit in Vic a few weeks ago, the guy there checked for me in the rules and confirmed that there is no worries at all with a L plater driving a V8 left hand drive. I have added him to the insurance and will give him a drive when he gets a few more hours up.


Offline IGALOP

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2011, 09:40:50 pm »
Found this Macka.
AOMC; revised 1/2/2011
See  Q19.
http://www.aomc.asn.au/cpsnewfaq.htm
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Offline EVOL66

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2011, 10:04:54 pm »
Quote from: IGALOP link=topic=15279.msg159452#msg159452
Found this Macka.
AOMC; revised 1/2/2011
See  Q19.
http://www.aomc.asn.au/cpsnewfaq.htm


That only relates to the club rego scheme, correct? Seems like this could be a problem for me if it doesn't. Ah well, at the rate I'm going I'll be fully licensed before I finish the POS :therethere:

Offline Macka

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2011, 10:11:02 pm »
Quote from: IGALOP link=topic=15279.msg159452#msg159452
Found this Macka.
AOMC; revised 1/2/2011
See  Q19.
http://www.aomc.asn.au/cpsnewfaq.htm


Johnno, yeah I knew that was there.  I've asked the AOMC for their reference on where the legislation can be found.  I'm your AOMC delegate so it shouldn't be a problem.

Offline boss69hogg

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2011, 07:42:18 am »
Macka. No other issues re LHD in NSW. I gave my L plate step daughter a couple of go's in my old mustang (candyapple red 351 69 Mach 1). Learners can learn in anything they like, just can't drive V8 once they get their Ps. LHD is not a problem for either L or P platers. I remember debating with the RTA the validity of the blanket " no V8 rules" when my standard SV6 Commodore puts out 210 kw which is a heck of a lot more power than the old Mustang 260 ci D code convertible V8 we had.
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Offline dalex

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2011, 01:07:17 pm »
Thanks Macka for the follow up on this, I look forward to the clarification of Victorian L platers in a left hand drive as that Q19 is different from what I was told.

It also is conflict with Q4

Q4. Can a learner driver operate a Club Permit Vehicle?
A. Yes, subject to the normal rules for learner drivers.

Q19. Can L plate or P plate drivers operate a LHD CH plated vehicle?
A. No. Only a fully licenced driver may drive a LHD CH Plated vehicle. (All LHD vehicles may only be driven by only a fully licenced driver). (Revised 1.2.2011)

Offline BLKPNY

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2011, 03:52:57 pm »
That info on P Plate restrictions seems really simple and easy to understand...:sarcasm:

It was much easier when I was a kid.... it is was powerful, you can't drive it. If it is slow, go for it. I can't understand how a V6 commodore is ok, when a carby V8 isn't. The V6 is much faster than the carby V8, and they sound hideous.... The police should lock them up for Aural pleasure abuse.
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Offline Macka

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« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2011, 06:41:59 pm »
Quote from: dalex link=topic=15279.msg159498#msg159498
Thanks Macka for the follow up on this, I look forward to the clarification of Victorian L platers in a left hand drive as that Q19 is different from what I was told.

It also is conflict with Q4

Q4. Can a learner driver operate a Club Permit Vehicle?
A. Yes, subject to the normal rules for learner drivers.

Q19. Can L plate or P plate drivers operate a LHD CH plated vehicle?
A. No. Only a fully licenced driver may drive a LHD CH Plated vehicle. (All LHD vehicles may only be driven by only a fully licenced driver). (Revised 1.2.2011)


Dalex,   Thats right, a learner can drive a Club Permit Vehicle when its a RHD.  

Theres no worries there, what i'm trying to find out now is why there is a restriction on LHD motor vehicles.

See how we go with the AOMC.

Offline Macka

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2011, 06:45:54 pm »
Quote from: boss69hogg link=topic=15279.msg159477#msg159477
Macka. No other issues re LHD in NSW. I gave my L plate step daughter a couple of go's in my old mustang (candyapple red 351 69 Mach 1). Learners can learn in anything they like, just can't drive V8 once they get their Ps. LHD is not a problem for either L or P platers. I remember debating with the RTA the validity of the blanket " no V8 rules" when my standard SV6 Commodore puts out 210 kw which is a heck of a lot more power than the old Mustang 260 ci D code convertible V8 we had.


Boss, yep..  same here.  Although VicRoads does allow for exemptions made under application if the new licence holder needs it for employment or there are hardship reasons.

Offline Macka

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2011, 05:31:17 pm »
OK, after quizing the AOMC about my findings and then the file going back to VicRoads, this was the reply-

"Checking back through earlier correspondence with VicRoads it appears that there is NO restriction on Learners operating LHD vehicles on the CPS.
 
The FAQ (#19) on the AOMC webpages has been amended accordingly and a statement will appear in the next AOMC Newsletter.  An amendment will be applied to the AOMC CPS Handbook.  
 
Thank you for highlighting the issue."

So they will ammend their question and answer sheet and the information will be rectified in the AOMC newsletter.    
 

Offline IGALOP

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2011, 05:59:10 pm »
That answers the learners situation but what about P Plate LHD drivers?
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Offline Macka

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LHD on P plates
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2011, 07:02:56 pm »
Johnno, yeah they can, as long as they are not V8's, turbo's or supercharged (non diesel) or prohibitive vehicles due to power to weight.  If a P plater in Victoria needs an exemption due to work or family hardship, they can apply to Vic Roads for the exemption.

So there is a market for LHD 6cyl Mustangs.   :thumb:


Legal stuff.

Road Safety (Drivers) Regulations 2009 - SECT 56
Probationary prohibited vehicles

56. Probationary prohibited vehicles

(1) Subject to subregulation (2), for the purpose of regulation 57, a
probationary prohibited vehicle is a motor vehicle (other than a motor cycle)
that-

(a) has an engine with 8 cylinders or more; or

(b) has an engine that is turbocharged or supercharged (other than a
diesel powered vehicle); or

(c) has an engine that has been modified to increase the vehicle's
performance (other than a modification made by the manufacturer in the
course of the manufacture of the vehicle); or

(d) is declared by the Corporation under subregulation (4)(a) to be a
probationary prohibited vehicle for the purposes of this regulation;
or

(e) has a modification declared by the Corporation under subregulation
(4)(b) to be a high powered modification.

(2) A probationary prohibited vehicle does not include a vehicle declared by
the Corporation under subregulation (4)(c) not to be a probationary prohibited
vehicle.

(3) For the purpose of subregulation (1)(b), an engine is turbocharged if a
turbocharger is installed in the vehicle, whether or not it is otherwise
attached to the engine.

(4) For the purpose of this regulation, the Corporation, by notice published
in the Government Gazette, may-

(a) declare that a vehicle or class of vehicle is a probationary
prohibited vehicle; or

(b) declare that a modification to a vehicle or type of modification to a
vehicle is a high powered modification; or

(c) declare that a vehicle, other than a vehicle with an engine having 8
cylinders or more, is not a probationary prohibited vehicle.


Road Safety (Drivers) Regulations 2009 - SECT 57
Offence to drive probationary prohibited vehicle

57. Offence to drive probationary prohibited vehicle



(1) The holder of a probationary driver licence must not drive a probationary
prohibited vehicle on a highway.

Penalty: 10 penalty units.



(2) Subregulation (1) does not apply to-

(a) the holder of a probationary driver licence who is driving a
probationary prohibited vehicle-

(i) in the course of his or her employment and at the request of his or
her employer; or

(ii) subject to subregulation (3), in the course of his or her business or
to or from the workplace of that business; or

(b) the holder of a probationary driver licence who is exempt from the
requirement in subregulation (1) by the Corporation in accordance with
subregulation (4); or

(c) a member of the police force who, in the course of duty, is driving a
motor vehicle; or

(d) a person who is driving a probationary prohibited vehicle that is also
a heavy vehicle if-

(i) that person does not hold a driver licence that authorises the holder
to drive that motor vehicle; and

(ii) he or she is the holder of a driver licence of another category; and

(iii) a person who holds an Australian driver licence which is appropriate
for the category of vehicle that is being driven is sitting beside him
or her; and

(iv) there is a driver under instruction plate affixed to, and facing out
from, the front and rear of the vehicle.

(3) Subregulation (2)(a)(ii) applies only if an Australian Business Number is
in force in relation to the person's business.

(4) The Corporation, by written instrument, may exempt the holder of a
probationary driver licence from the requirement of subregulation (1) if-

(a) the vehicle has an engine that is-

(i) turbocharged or supercharged; and

(ii) has a power mass ratio of less than 100 kW per tonne; or

(b) the vehicle has 4 or more seats, and has an engine that is-

(i) turbocharged or supercharged; and

(ii) has a power mass ratio of 100 kW per tonne or more but less than 125
kW per tonne; or

(c) the nature of that person's occupation, essential activities or family
circumstances is such that compliance with the regulation would impose
undue hardship on the person or the person's family.

Note Under regulation 36, the Corporation may impose conditions on a driver
licence issued to a person for whom a requirement has been dispensed with
under this regulation.

(5) In deciding whether or not to grant an exemption under subregulation
(4)(b), the Corporation must have regard to-

(a) the likely effect of the decision on safe, efficient and equitable
road use in Victoria;

(b) the characteristics of the vehicle, including whether it is designed
for sports performance rather than family use.

(6) In deciding whether or not to grant an exemption under subregulation
(4)(c), the Corporation must have regard to the likely effect of the decision
on safe, efficient and equitable road use in Victoria.

(7) In this regulation-

power mass ratio, in relation to a motor vehicle, means the ratio between the
power output of the engine of the motor vehicle at the time of its manufacture
including any additional output resulting from any modification to the motor
vehicle after its manufacture expressed in kilowatts and the unladen mass of
the motor vehicle expressed in tonnes.