Author Topic: 4spd top loader vs 5/6 spd box (Read 7239 times)

1965 R · « **on:** January 30, 2010, 03:26:26 am »

I have a 4spd top loader now with Lakewood bellhousing in my 65 Fastback. I really want a 6spd box that will handle big hp is there one that will fit, with out big mods or is a TKO 5spd the best I can upgrade to I would love to run 4.11's in the rear so a .64 top gear would work out great but if I can only get a .82 top gear I guess a 3.7 rear would still be ok. I got a 3.0 now

Does any one know what torque the top loaders are rated to. Is must be decent as all the 60's and 70's GT's run them???

non member · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2010, 06:03:27 am »

Quote

Originally posted by 1965 R
I have a 4spd top loader now with Lakewood bellhousing in my 65 Fastback. I really want a 6spd box that will handle big hp is there one that will fit, with out big mods or is a TKO 5spd the best I can upgrade to I would love to run 4.11's in the rear so a .64 top gear would work out great but if I can only get a .82 top gear I guess a 3.7 rear would still be ok. I got a 3.0 now

Does any one know what torque the top loaders are rated to. Is must be decent as all the 60's and 70's GT's run them???

This is a link to the album where I modified the tunnel/floor for a Viper 6 speed. Big changes, lifted the tunnel almost 50mm at the firewall....

http://s728.photobucket.com/albums/ww284/Downresto/

shaunp · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2010, 01:40:26 pm »

Your TL I reckon is a normal 28 spline output & small first motion shaft box, I can probably build it to be a Bull nose with new parts which is what was used in cars with greater than a 390 FE car fitted from new, you can also run better bearings than stock. As for a TKO, we run one behind a 383 SBC that is injected and blown in an E type jag, Runs about 700 at the wheels with the tyres smoking on the dyno at 75% throttle. This car is used in hillclimbs, historic sprints etc, works great. This car will carry the front wheels in 1 & 2 if you want. No issues. It's the fist motion shaft that will fail in a TL with big power.

HEVEN67 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2010, 10:23:17 pm »

Put a Gear vendors overdrive and you'll have an 8 speed!

non member · « **Reply #4 on:** January 31, 2010, 04:49:11 am »

Quote

Originally posted by SUSPECT
Kerry, why the drastic tunnel mods ?

Tempest fitted a T56 to his 69 with minimal fuss..
http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/viewthread.php?tid=6161

The floors were out (so was the cowl as it was rotten) so we mocked up the engine/trans & then built the tunnel for ease of maintainence. Usually when I am fitting different parts I try to make it as friendly as possible to work on it later. That motor/trans slid in without any effort.

Car ended up with all RRS suspension front & rear (this is the car that "did" me as a dealer for them, never again, 1 trip to Australia to sort issues, days on the phone & months waiting for really poorly built & welded parts to arrive).

However it all turned out well, the owner had a high end welding company & he had the welded suspension parts reworked.

1965 R · « **Reply #5 on:** February 01, 2010, 01:53:57 am »

Heven67

I looked into the Gear vendors overdrive and from all reports they are no good for racing as the electrics cause a delay for the gear change but they are great for a split box for say a F350 pulling a real heavy load as the delay on that sort of set up is not a big problem. So it would give me a use full O/D gear but that's all and for the same price I might as well just buy a 5spd box and sell my 4spd box which was rebuilt only a couple of years ago.

1965 R · « **Reply #6 on:** February 04, 2010, 02:04:46 pm »

Has any one fitted a Gear Vendors and tried it down the strip???
I have been looking at some other forums and they seem to think that they are over priced for what they are but good it the motor home and big F trucks. Any many people said they had problems fitting them as it wasnt as easy as they make out and they were slow to help solve the problems.

FST68 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 04, 2010, 03:03:59 pm »

if your concerned about strenght and want to stay manual with no tunnel mods my sugestion is a supra 5 speed box, thsi with a delows housing are a good strong setup.

1965 R · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2010, 01:11:02 pm »

Can I throw 500-550hp at it with my 408 on the strip or will it go bang as a Supra is only a little 6 isnt it and wouldnt have big torque to worry about??? Thats why I was looking a V8 boxes and yes want to stay manual not an auto AOD 4spd that built right would handle the power with out a worry

shaunp · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2010, 01:41:55 pm »

2 Types of Supra boxes the W57, 58 type which are pretty strong, I've seen a couple break with abuse behind a blown 383, but they are only $400 to replace, you can also fit some different bearings or the Turbo one which is as good as a TKO.
Talk to Jeff Dellow, he can do a kit for either

FST68 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2010, 02:15:24 pm »

As Shaunp states they are cheap boxes and their close ratio turbo boxes are pretty strong. the supra motor are only a little 6 but I have seen plenty of turbo versions running around with 500+hp.

The other thing to look at is there are many strengthening kits available and some are stating they are capable of taking 1000hp with the beefed up kits.

Just remember this, what you are looking for is a compramise what is good for the drag strip isn't generally the best option for crusing up and down the highway.

shaunp · « **Reply #11 on:** February 07, 2010, 12:24:21 pm »

Quote

Originally posted by 1965 R
I have a 4spd top loader now with Lakewood bellhousing in my 65 Fastback. I really want a 6spd box that will handle big hp is there one that will fit, with out big mods or is a TKO 5spd the best I can upgrade to I would love to run 4.11's in the rear so a .64 top gear would work out great but if I can only get a .82 top gear I guess a 3.7 rear would still be ok. I got a 3.0 now

Does any one know what torque the top loaders are rated to. Is must be decent as all the 60's and 70's GT's run them???

Of course there is another option and thats to just get a 4.11 spool and swap the centre when you want to go to the drags. A gasket and a couple of hours work. That what I used to do in the 80's, cheap option.

mach70 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 07, 2010, 07:10:29 pm »

I read a little while ago that a company in SA (I think) was doing straight cut gears for the top loader, around about $2k - $2.5 from memory.

Aparently these were a lot stronger than stock components.

shaunp · « **Reply #13 on:** February 07, 2010, 07:26:19 pm »

Quote

Originally posted by mach70
I read a little while ago that a company in SA (I think) was doing straight cut gears for the top loader, around about $2k - $2.5 from memory.

Aparently these were a lot stronger than stock components.

Mach, it's normally the input shaft on a toploader that you twist with big Torque, not hard to convert them to a Bull-nose as fitted to cars with bigger than a 390 from new, parts are cheap for these boxes from the US. A bullnose box with the correct oil is strong as. By the way that Bloke in SA buys his parts from Dave Keeys in the US and then doubles the price.
Shaun.

1965 R · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2010, 01:16:06 pm »

I will ring Summit and see what the viper 6spd box with kit to fit will set me back as a .62 6th gear would be nice for the high way with 4.11's in the rear. That should be a nice street/strip set up or I will look more into the W57 if thats too expensive. I guess the W57 would be about a .80 5th gear so 3.7 in the rear then. I am fairly sure my box is the wide ratio top loader now and it probably has been strenghtend as the guy who built the car did every thing else right with no short cuts. I could still run slicks on a slightly smaller rim for the strip to help the ratio if I put a 5/6 spd into her.

shaunp · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2010, 02:28:47 pm »

W57 boxes are about $500 + 500 for the bellhousing , it's the turbo boxes that you want for big power though not the W series. I doubt your TL would have been built to bull nose spec

shaunp · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2010, 03:23:27 pm »

Quote

Originally posted by SUSPECT
I cant find it now.. but I priced a six speed Getrag (as used in turbo supras..) ehh $4500 USD.
Cheaper to get a close ratio T56 magnum for $2700USD
Difference being the supra is 1:1 in fifth, the T56 in fourth

EDIT: Ouch !! They've gone up... now $6500
http://www.suprastore.com/tosuge6sptrn.html

Need to ring Jeff he noramally caries them (2nd hand), he wouldn't keep them if they were more expensive then a Tremec cause he sells them new as well.

6T9rustang · « **Reply #17 on:** February 20, 2010, 03:37:21 am »

Quote

Originally posted by ozbilt
Quote
Originally posted by 1965 R
I have a 4spd top loader now with Lakewood bellhousing in my 65 Fastback. I really want a 6spd box that will handle big hp is there one that will fit, with out big mods or is a TKO 5spd the best I can upgrade to I would love to run 4.11's in the rear so a .64 top gear would work out great but if I can only get a .82 top gear I guess a 3.7 rear would still be ok. I got a 3.0 now

Does any one know what torque the top loaders are rated to. Is must be decent as all the 60's and 70's GT's run them???

This is a link to the album where I modified the tunnel/floor for a Viper 6 speed. Big changes, lifted the tunnel almost 50mm at the firewall....

http://s728.photobucket.com/albums/ww284/Downresto/

I fitted a TKO 600 into my 69 and had to raise the tranny tunnel too! I have the the .64 overdrive and 4:11 final drive. With 18inch( 25.94 tyre dia.) wheels I'm figuring around 2400rpm @ 110km/hr. :(

GT350H · « **Reply #18 on:** February 20, 2010, 09:30:31 am »

I have the the .64 overdrive and 4:11 final drive. With 18inch wheels I'm figuring around 2800-3000 @ 110km/hr. :( [/quote]

Am I right in saying that the "higher" the rim the "higher" the RPM?
Assuming the same box and diff gears.

GT350H · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2010, 09:01:34 pm »

Quote

Originally posted by SUSPECT
Not the rim as such.. but outside diameter of tyre
which depends on rim size and aspect ratio
Larger tyre size = LOWER RPM

For example
In Russ' case with 4.11's and a 26" tyre he'll be pulling 2,040RPM@60..
Change aspect ratio to a larger tyre.. say 27" it drops to 1,964RPM@60

Formula for RPM is
(DiffRatio x MPH x 336 x BoxRatio) / TyreSize

Thanks SUSPECT ( I meant to write Tyre but was a bit sleepy ).
That makes sense to me now = the higher the OD of the tyre - the lower the RPM.

Cheers:(

1965 R · « **Reply #20 on:** February 22, 2010, 10:31:25 am »

I have been told there are coversion kits to put a T56 magnum into a 69 Mustang with not mods at all other than using the kit and welding in a small section to mount the box but not cuts to the car at all. I was also told buy some one else that the 65 has the same floor pan in that area as the 69 so if it fits the 69 it will fit my 65.
The T56 and I think the TKO600 have six possible locations for the shifter if I remember correctly so that will allow it to use the same hole as the top loader did.
The mob I spoke to about the kit for the T56 were in Aus but I was looking to the US for the same kit but cheaper and the same too for the box.

HEVEN67 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2010, 12:15:11 pm »

Correct me if Im wrong but you only bother hitting the overdrive when your crusing otherwise it is the same as without the overdrive.

HEVEN67 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2010, 09:41:14 pm »

What I think was being suggested was the speed at which the upshift/downshift solenoid operates was delaying a quick change, so leave it in low then you cane the first 4 gears the drop into overdrive when you cruising,

1965 R · « **Reply #23 on:** March 02, 2010, 03:38:10 pm »

I can buy a 5spd and a 6spd for much the same money with the Tremics so of course I want the 6spd. I have been told that the trans tunnell is the same on the 65 and the 69's which the T56 fits with out cutting the car. So does any one know will the T56 fit with out cutting the car or do I need to go with my second choice the TKO 600???

1965 R · « **Reply #24 on:** March 02, 2010, 03:41:25 pm »

Heven67 do run a gear vendors o/d in your car??

4spd top loader vs 5/6 spd box

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Author Topic: 4spd top loader vs 5/6 spd box (Read 7239 times)