Author Topic: Starter troubles (Read 2936 times)

coops · « **on:** January 10, 2021, 05:15:22 pm »

Today I tried to start my 69 Mustang after it has not been started for a few weeks. When I turned the key nothing happened. I tried the horn and it worked fine, tried the headlights and they seemed very bright but still nothing. In the past I had a problem with this happening so about 12 months ago I replaced the starter solinoid. This has worked fine but occasionally when you turned the key to start it nothing happened. If you tried a second time it usually fired up. Today I checked the battery and tried to start it again and this time if fired straight up ... BUT the starter would not disengage. I turned the ignition to the off and lock position and the motor kept running with the starter engaged. I jumped out and pulled off the earth cable on the battery and it shut down. With the key in the off position, I tried to refit the earth cable to the battery and it immediatly started turning over to start so I removed the earth cable once again. The car has an XB steering column and ignition Lock. I know it sounds like the ignition switch but I am not sure where to start. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Cheers Coops

AussiePhil · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2021, 06:18:10 pm »

Hey Coops,
I've just been through something like this.
If your starter solenoid looks like this solenoid the brass terminals which are tee bolts can be tightened not square.
Poor design, they should fit into a recess.
To solve remove the solenoid, loosen the nuts and find the centre, slightly tighten and hacksaw slots as the photo to indicate its centre.
Otherwise there is a chance the solenoid will work even without initiating.
Cheers Phil.

coops · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2021, 06:42:13 pm »

Thanks Phill. If I loosen the nuts will I be able to centre the T pieces by feel or is there another way of selling them in the correct position? The solinoid came from Repco about 12 months ago. If this is the problem I'll be wrapped. After looking under the dash it's a bloody nightmare.

Clubman7 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2021, 06:57:21 pm »

Cheap ones are badly designed and Like Aussie Phil said if you overtighten it and move the terminals it wrecks the alignment of the contacts and gives intermittent faults.
I had a repco one for awhile and dismantled it after replacing it with a genuine Motorcraft one from Custom Mustangs.
Contacts weren’t aligned and weren’t making full contact when starting car.
Motorcraft one is a better design.

AussiePhil · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2021, 08:04:29 pm »

Quote from: coops on January 10, 2021, 06:42:13 pm

Thanks Phill. If I loosen the nuts will I be able to centre the T pieces by feel or is there another way of selling them in the correct position? The solinoid came from Repco about 12 months ago. If this is the problem I'll be wrapped. After looking under the dash it's a bloody nightmare.

Yes, feel should be fine enough, even if you then use a marker for future reference.
This one played up from new exactly like yours! It's a JAS brand solenoid! Not cheap!
I drilled out the rivets, pulled apart and found the bolts misaligned, pulled them out and cut slots and put back together.
Be careful if you pull a solenoid apart, pop rivets can break the bakelite if not real careful, use washers on expansion end to stop pop rivet expanding in the hole and breaking the Bakelite.

I've fitted a CVR gear reduction starter with its own solenoid and deleted this type of solenoid and initiate that solenoid with a Bocsh relay and I would recommend this modification to all that don't require a Concourse Car!

AussiePhil · « **Reply #5 on:** January 10, 2021, 08:20:10 pm »

Quote from: Clubman7 on January 10, 2021, 06:57:21 pm

Cheap ones are badly designed and Like Aussie Phil said if you overtighten it and move the terminals it wrecks the alignment of the contacts and gives intermittent faults.
I had a repco one for awhile and dismantled it after replacing it with a genuine Motorcraft one from Custom Mustangs.
Contacts weren’t aligned and weren’t making full contact when starting car.
Motorcraft one is a better design.

Hey clubman,
Yes the Motorcraft is a better solenoid.
D2DZ-11450-A is definitely a better design, the terminals are cast into the bakelite.
Although I did bust a brand new one though over tightening it.
Cheers Phil

coops · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2021, 08:30:35 pm »

Thanks Guys. All great advice. I am just going to order a motorcraft solinoid and go from there. Your advice is greatly appreciated. Cheers coops

AussiePhil · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2021, 08:42:20 pm »

Hey Coops,
Just remember there are two styles of ford starters!
One has horizontal holes and the other holes are at 45°.
Can you fit a different type without drilling an extra hole to attach to inner fender.
Cheers Phil.

coops · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2021, 03:46:01 pm »

Today I took the starter solinoid off my 66 Mustang and tried it. The first few times I tried it the car started fine and the starter disengaged. On about the third time it started and the starter stayed engaged and when I turned off the key it kept running. I had to once again jump out and pull the earth strap off the battery. I have a remote starter button under the dash (it was there when I bought the car) and I never use it so I reattached the battery and turned the key to the on position and hit the remote starter button and if started with no issues. I turned it off and started it a few times with the remote starter button and it worked fine until about the third or forth time and once again the starter did not disengage. I had to remove the battery cable again to get it to stop running. How can it keep running when the key is turned off and only do it intermittently? Also the starter solinoid I tried came off a 66 Mustang that has been sitting for about 18 years waiting to be restored so it might be rooted to start with but to do exactly the same thing worries me a bit. The engine is a 351 CLeveland and the underdash wiring is a bit of a mess as the car has been converted to RHD. I'm not sure where to start so if anyone has any ideas they would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Coops

AussiePhil · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2021, 05:43:39 pm »

Hey Coops,
If you're sure that the starter solenoid is ok it may be a stray signal from the ignition switch.
Put a volt meter on the red/blue wire to the starter terminal (S) on the starter motor.
Try to start the car until it doesn't disengage again and see if there is voltage on the meter.
If so it's your ignition switch!
Cheers Phil.

coops · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2021, 05:51:20 pm »

I'm still steering towards the starter solinoid. It all points to that I'm thinking.

AussiePhil · « **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2021, 06:22:47 pm »

Hey Coops,
If you think that, and you're proficient with a drill and pop rivet gun you can pull apart your starter solenoid and araldite the bolts square and cut a slot like I have.
Just pop rivet it back together with good fitting washers to stop the bakelite cracking.
Cheers Phil.

coops · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2021, 10:03:42 am »

I pulled apart the solinoid this morning (and broke it) but found both "T" bolts out of square. Might this be my problem?

AussiePhil · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2021, 11:08:47 am »

Hey Coops,
That's not to bad, you can fix that!
Just remove both bolts, cut a slot in both and araldite back in flat, and tighten bolts.
The little broken bit could also be araldited back in.
Just use soft pop rivets and washers.
Cheers Phil

coops · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2021, 01:12:57 pm »

Thanks Phil. Because it only has a small contact area could this be the reason for my problems?

coops · « **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2021, 03:06:29 pm »

OMG. So today I went and bought a new starter solinoid. Fitted it and tried it. Started but once again the starter did not disengage. Turned the key off and it kept running so I jumped out and pulled the earth strap from the battery. Refitted the earth strap and tried it again with the remote starter under the dash and it started and the starter disengaged. Let it run for a few minutes and turned the key to the off position but the car kept running. Pulled the earth strap from the battery and it kept running. Pulled the 2 small wires from the solinoid but it kept running. (There is also a wire that goes to the coil via a ballast resistor) that I did not remove. The only way to stop it was I pulled the lead from the coil to the distributor. This has me stumped. Any ideas guys. Any I put is greatly appreciated. Cheers Coops.
Also after I removed the battery cable and the engine stopped .... after a few minutes I put the cable back on and I heard a click as a small spark jumped from the battery post to th earth cable like it was still turned on but after the click everything was off. The click did not seem to come from the solinoid.

coops · « **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2021, 04:47:32 pm »

It looks like I may have fixed it. I have run an earth wire from the mounting on the solinoid to the engine block. I have started it on and off about twenty times and it is working fine. When I first tried to refit the battery earth cable it tried to start so I tapped the solinoid a few times with a spanner and it is now working fine. So maybe a bad earth was the main culprit and was causing the solinoid to stick. Does this sound plausible or am I dreaming.

AussiePhil · « **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2021, 05:45:04 pm »

Hey Coops,
Earth would have nothing to do with it!
I'm thinking it's your remote start set up or the ignition switch!
100% certain! Engine not stopping is an ignition switch problem!
Attach an alligator clip to your red/blue wire to the S terminal on the solenoid, when the starter doesn't disengage remove the alligator clip and it will disengage, 100% certain!
Cheers Phil.

coops · « **Reply #18 on:** January 17, 2021, 07:58:20 pm »

Thanks Phil. It's now starting fine so I'll keep my eye out for an XB ignition switch. Thanks for all your help. Cheers Mate

pmb0186 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2021, 04:12:10 pm »

I had the same problem
What happens is there is a volt drop across the ignition switch (old wiring and switch) which when you go to start the solenoid will not receive the required 12V and as such the pull-in torque is inadequate creating a resistive joint. Overtime the contacts carbonise and eventually the heat is so great it will weld the contacts together.
The answer is add a relay driven by the ignition switch to the solenoid and as such the high current bypasses the ignition switch no volt drop 12V.
If you choose to do nothing and just change the solenoid it will eventually happen again

coops · « **Reply #20 on:** January 25, 2021, 05:44:32 pm »

Thanks Pete. I have replaced the solinoid a while back so it seams exactly what you are saying. Do I need an auto electrician or is this something I can attempt. I'm not great on electrics and relays are a bit of an unknown. Cheers Coops

coops · « **Reply #21 on:** January 25, 2021, 05:47:44 pm »

I hadn't started the car for about a month when this first happened. Could that have been the cause, if the battery was down a bit?

pmb0186 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 01, 2021, 09:58:40 am »

sorry for the late reply
yes with the battery discharged it will be more likely to happen as the pull-in torque will be further diminished
I have mark up a schematic attached
use reasonable gauge wire excessing 20A rating
please include fuse
I would mount it on top of the solenoid or near to
check ground of solenoid is clean and good condition
any doubt an auto electrician would charge much its about an hour work and $30 in parts

Starter troubles

News:

Author Topic: Starter troubles (Read 2936 times)