Engine rebuild

[Reborn67]

Hello to all, I am a new member and new to the area, [Newcastle] l have a '67 Hardtop requiring a full rebuild, Being from Melbourne l had quite a few contacts with people in the car business, but here l have none,  So l dare say l will be using this forum quite a lot to seek advise. Starting with the engine, l have a target range of 350Hp from a 289 which l do not intend to stroke, l haver a pretty good idea what has to be done but need some thoughts on guys to approach and the ones to avoid, l have already spoken to Pryce engines, who seemed very accommodating but any other contacts or feedback would be great.  Andrew..,

[earthwalker]

Pretty limited in newy I'm afraid, Kevin Pryce is a very good technician, they have done a number of machining and balancing jobs for me but they are quite busy and a little disorganized so you have to be on the phone a bit to keep things on track and don't expect a returned call, you have to drive them,  but that being said they do good work and have the only dyno in the area. I've not delt with g-force for 20years so carnt comment there, Frank Mcnaught is an old school engine builder but more suited to stock builds but very high quality work.
 But if you can get down there the guys at BG Engines in North Richmond are in my experience far better than anything on offer in newy, well worth the drive, Damien is your guy there. If your not building your own definitely go there,

[GEOFF289]

In that neck of the woods the first thing you should do is ask Fitzy on here where NOT to go to get an engine built.

[Dwayne]

In that neck of the woods you should do is ask Fitzy on here where NOT to go to get an engine built.

Probably the best advice you'll get today.

[barnett468]

In that neck of the woods you should do is ask Fitzy on here where NOT to go to get an engine built.

ouch...that's brutal...but sooo true!

 

[barnett468]

A real 350 hp from a 289 is a pretty tall order requiring some fairly big dollars to insure reliability and it will not have any bottom end and will probably rev to around 7000 rpm to make that much power. This means that you should use a 5 speed and at least 3.80 gears.

What are you thinking as far as parts at the moment?

[Reborn67]

Thanks to all for your input, will give the guy down sydney way a call and have a chat. As far as the parts are concerned it is pretty much all new except for block and crank, l pulled an auto of it and was planning on putting it back in [after a rebuild of course] A bit early at this stage if diff ratios remain the same..,

[mcarnage59]

There is another forum “MustangTech” where there is a great engine build reference document written by their late “Boofhead” a highly respected former member of this group. Someone will post the link for you. It has a lot of detail regarding various build options.

That’s not to say there isn’t heaps of knowledge hear and most of the usual suspects have already contributed to your post. Just offering another valuable resource.

Cheers

[Dwayne]

Links to the forum are blocked unfortunately.

It's located in their Tech Zone: Engine and Driveline/Parts Selection for a Street Performance 302 Windsor.

The article is very well written and I continue to learn more every time I read it.

[shaunp]

350 Hp it will be grumpy, put a 3.4" crank in it have 400hp and be pretty tame.

[Reborn67]

Thanks again for input, putting the crank you suggest would stroke it out to what cap? and the figures l am getting back are pretty large so an additional crank could blow the budget  I am still at an early stage of research and  the extra dollars for the extra horses could go to something else, Decisions Decisions,
Thanks Guys...,

[shaunp]

Thanks again for input, putting the crank you suggest would stroke it out to what cap? and the figures l am getting back are pretty large so an additional crank could blow the budget  I am still at an early stage of research and  the extra dollars for the extra horses could go to something else, Decisions Decisions,
Thanks Guys...,

347 if its bored 30 thou, they need a 5.2" rod. It transforms them I've done a number of them, perfectly reliable as long as you are not going to REV it too hard 6k is fine or make 500+ hp. The ford block is the weak link they break the main bearing webs out. The earlier 302/289 are the best blocks not the late 5.0 blocks. Dont believe what you read about rod angles and oil burning, its crap. It really costs not much extra to stroke an engine at time of reco , if you consider the cost or resizing rods, rod bolts, crank regrind on the old stuff etc, cast stroker crank, I beam rods and Hyper eutectic pistons is entry level spec, Scat or Eagle cranks and rods are fine for this. You can do a 3,25" stroke which gives 331 but cost is the same so why bother. Chuck some entry level alloy heads on it bit of a cam and it will surprise you.

If you want to make big power in a 289/302 size engine you need a Dart or Worldcastings aftermarket block these are very strong. They have a 4-1/8" bore which gives you 363 cube with a 3.4" crank, but if you use a 3.41" crank and bore them more you can achieve nearly 380 cube in a 289 size package. A 363 will make a comfortable  500-600hp as a fast street motor if you rev them up around 7000 rpm, these blocks are safe to much higher RPM then stock fords, typically as race motor they will run into hi 7k and above. The 4-1/8 bore also un shrouds the valve at high lift and the extra bore creates a bigger vacuum as well , so they draw a bigger fuel charge. A 347-363 is great choice in an early mustang and everything can be had off the shelf

[barnett468]

Thanks again for input, putting the crank you suggest would stroke it out to what cap? and the figures l am getting back are pretty large so an additional crank could blow the budget  I am still at an early stage of research and  the extra dollars for the extra horses could go to something else, Decisions Decisions,
Thanks Guys...,

i build a lot of high horse engines and shaunp and a few others here do also and they know their stuff, and if i were building a big horse 289, which i have before, i would install steel main caps which is going to cost you some big bucks.


CRANKSHAFT

the other big weak part in a big horse 289 is the crank unless you want to pay $2000.00 usd for a billet one, because the only 289 cranks that are available are the stock ones, and i have seen several break.

its also best to use a neutral/internal balanced rotating assembly on a big horse 289 and it costs big bucks to do that, especially in oz.

the point is that you can build a 347 for around the same money as a big horse 289 and neither will be "cheap".


BUDGET PARTS

on a stroker, you can save a little money using chinese heads and a cast chinese crank.

on a big horse 289 you can save some money using world products or similar cast iron heads but that will make it even harder to reach your horsepower goal so i don't see any point in doing that.

you can also save a lot of money using a non roller cam. if you do that with a 289 you have to use a solid lifter cam and higher ratio rocker arms to get close to your goal, but the rocker arms aren't a big deal cost wise because the high ratio ones cost around the same as the stock ratio ones.

a decent carb for either build will cost at least $600.00 usd. you need to use one that does not have a choke tower on it but you can buy a cheaper carb and cut the tower off.


GEAR RATIO

If you build a moderate hp 347 (around 350 hp) and use a 5 speed trans, you can get away with around 3.25 gears and it will still accelerate hard and still rev low on the freeway due to the overdrive gear in the trans. The lowest gears you might want to use if you want fairly low rpm on the freeway but want to roast the tires a bit are 3.50 imo. The tire size is also a factor in determining the gear ratio. The z spec t5 has far better gear spacing than a standard t5 and is also a stronger trans.





 

[barnett468]

heres one option for a "budget" 289 build.

e street 2.02 heads. the valve springs will need to be changed

comp cams valve springs - ideally the valve springs should have a total of around .100" clearance combined between the coils with the valves fully open to reduce the potential for valve spring surge at high rpm.

howards edm solid flat tappet lifters

this cam

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=3338&gid=342

these pistons

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-kb116-030/overview/make/ford

these rods

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-5155f3d/overview/make/ford

these rocker arms

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp1017/overview/make/ford

use .035" thick cometic head gaskets

zero deck the block

mill heads to 54 cc's . this will give you 11.22 compression with zero decked piston height and the kb pistons and .035" thick head gasket

this crank damper

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pfs-90006/overview/

.118 wall or thicker 5/16" howards push rods.

victor junior intake

hedman elite headers

this carb - cut the choke tower off

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-4778c

cloyes true roller timing chain

screw in oil galley plugs with a .5 mm hole drilled in both front ones.

[shaunp]

Add a crank to Barnetts list, swap the rods for some I beams 347 rods and the piston to 347 pistons and you have a 347.  for an extra  few $100, I beams will be cheaper

[Reborn67]

WOW, Thats a lot of information, many thanks,
I have pretty much made my mind up to go with new alloy heads, Dollar for dollar verses reward its a no brainer as well as roller lifters/rockers, The stroking aspect has always spooked me as l have heard the stories that you just dismissed, I was certainly not trying to breach 400hp , being realistic l didn't think it achievable keeping original block and crank, I suppose now l have to weigh up the new crank option, I never wanted a huge hp road scorcher but something that reflected the era of the car and the effort in a full restoration,
Now l have read a couple of times about drilling holes in oil gallery plugs, what is the purpose of that and is it something 'recognised' in the industry?
Thanks again. Andrew..,

[shaunp]

Drilling the front galley plug squirts oil on the distributor cam gear which a weak point of these engine, they chop the gear and the gear on the cam. I would run a Lunati Voodoo 272 hydraulic roller cam in a mild 347, has nice idle with a lope, and it will be quick enough for what you want. I use it and the next one up a 282 a lot I really like them as street cam.

[shaunp]

here they are  272 and 282

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1669&gid=289

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1670&gid=289

[shaunp]

friend me on Facebook if you want, I often post engine builds there, mostly Ford and a few Jag,engine I do for the E type boys etc,

https://www.facebook.com/shaun.t.power

[barnett468]

as mentioned, you will not break a 347 stroker IF it is built properly. i occasionally run the mahle pistons in a 347 because they pull out of the bottom of the cylinder less than most other off the shelf pistons but they are not cheap.

all i know is parts and prices in the us. shaunp knows everything in oz.

you can see by my list that there is a bit more to building an engine properly than just buying parts and throwing it together.

the purpose of a zero deck piston height and thin head gasket is to minimize the quench/squish clearance. this reduces the potential for "pinking" and allows you to run a little higher compression. compression is king but the smaller the engine, the more high compression is needed. also, the bigger the cam the higher the compression should be because the longer the cam duration, the longer it keeps the intake valve open which allows more air to escape as the piston is coming up in the cylinder on the compression stroke. there are 2 types of compression called static or uncorrected, and dynamic or corrected.

you "can" use the e street heads on a mild 347 but you re giving up a lot of power potential. rhs aluminum heads and trick flow heads and pro comp chinese heads are some others to consider for more power but still priced less than ar heads. if you have the money and want really impressive power. i suggest you buy the good trick flow 11r heads or my favorite which are the ar 190 heads. the afr's are pretty much the best overall head on the planet for big horse 347 thru 410 ford street engines but they ain't cheap. the trick flows are a reasonable value

for a moderate stroker, you can use the cast crank which will save some money.

the roller lifters are pricey. i use morels and shaunp previously mentioned that the link bar lifters lunati sells are morels but they are a little cheaper because they dont say morel on them.

[barnett468]

...is it something 'recognised' in the industry?
Thanks again. Andrew..,

yes, and nobody here is going to suggest anything that is abnormal or unproven, but they might suggest things that some builders don't do, because imo, some builders might not be all that good or care all that much. just ready fitzy's cam thread if you want to see what one supposedly "expert" builder did to his engine, so fitzy asked for help on the site and people here got him going again with their suggestions and now he says he has more power everywhere than he did before.

[shaunp]

No one really sells Trick flows here, But VPW and Rocket sell AFR, VPW often have 20% off on their E bays store which lines them up to US prices kind of. Most of my 363 is purchased over time on the 20% VPW sales, Dart block included. Outlaw speed shop in Adelaide is good as well

[barnett468]

if you like to rev and don't have to have a lot of power down low, build a high revving 331. it will still feel like it has very decent power down low if you use a 5 speed and the right rear gears. if you like a lot of torque down low in the rpm range like a big block, build a mild 347, if you want a lot of mid range power and only want to rev to around 5,200 rpm, build a moderate 347.

if you want it to run and feel like a small block, then i suggest you don't build it bigger than 331. the 347's have more of a big block feel. as shaunp mentioned, the cost is not that much different between building a 331 or a 347 and the cost difference is mainly in the heads with bigger heads for the bigger 347 costing more.

[shaunp]

Example AFR 185 heads were 10% of yesterday for Anzac day so 10% of the list price below. though you want the 58cc chambers not these

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AFR-1420-AFR-20-SB-FORD-WINDSOR-Cylinder-Head-185cc-Street-Heads-72cc-chamber-/323105705851?hash=item4b3a99cf7b

[barnett468]

i would also completely disregard hp numbers as they can be very misleading. i find its best for people to simply explain how they want their car to run compared to what they currently have.

i used to have some people come into the shop and tell me they wanted a 450 hp 347, and when i took them for a ride in a real 400 hp 347, most of them said they didn't want that much power, lol.