Mustang Owners Club Australia Forum
Technical & General Discussion Area => Tech Torque Pre 1973 => Topic started by: Ford Compact 1963 on March 31, 2015, 08:41:37 am
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So as many of you know engine is coming out this weekend and many thanks for all top level knowledge and advice. I was told best to create a new thread about the rebuild procedure.
1. Trans will be rebuilt by a specialist in NSW
2. Engine is still a grey area in who will do the rebuilt and do it right ! Any Sydney people recommended? As engine will be out and taken to them how do they test after rebuild and ensure all is ok?
3. Want to keep the engine look original however would like advice of what can be done internally to give some more torque and HP creating that supurb Windsor burble.the car will run always on 98.
Thank you
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So as many of you know engine is coming out this weekend and many thanks for all top level knowledge and advice. I was told best to create a new thread about the rebuild procedure.
1. Trans will be rebuilt by a specialist in NSW
2. Engine is still a grey area in who will do the rebuilt and do it right ! Any Sydney people recommended? As engine will be out and taken to them how do they test after rebuild and ensure all is ok?
3. Want to keep the engine look original however would like advice of what can be done internally to give some more torque and HP creating that supurb Windsor burble.the car will run always on 98.
Thank you
Its a 260 its not going to make big power, best way to make more power will be to run a 302 block but I suspect your block will be 5 bolt rear where it bolts to the auto, so you would need to go to a C4 box. With the original engine really all to can do fit a small torque cam like a Comp Cams Extreme energy 250 or 256. The heads on a 260 are very restrictive 289 heads have larger valves and would allow some extra flow, or you could have them fit 351 Windsor valves, I assume you will have them do the unleaded conversion with hard seats in the heads. You could also fit an Edelbrock performer intake manifold and a small 4 barrel carb like a Holley 465cfm, this, the cam, and bigger valves will wake it up. Personally I'd swap it out for a 302 and c4. These are a very basic engine any engine reco shop should have no issue reconditioning it
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how much money do you have . . big power will not be cheap?
do you have a 4v intake?.
if not, are you willing to change to a cast iron ford one?
are you willing to run different cast iron heads?
are you willing to run an aluminum intake?
are you willing to run cast iron hipo exhaust manifolds?
i had a 260 stroked to 292 with cast iron ford heads that had 320 hp, lol . . it was a blast
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how much money do you have . . it will not be cheap?
do have a 4v intake . . if not are you willing to change to a cast iron ford one?
are you willing to run different cast iron heads?
are you willing to run an aluminum intake?
are you willing to run cast iron hipo exhaust manifolds?
i had a 260 stroked to 292 with cadt iron ford heads that had 320 hp, lol . . it was a blast
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Basically the car runs now engine quiet as a mouse but we thought best to have full reco and while at it do some enhancements. The intake now is a 2 Barel stock everything
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Basically the car runs now engine quiet as a mouse but we thought best to have full reco and while at it do some enhancements. The intake now is a 2 Barel stock everything
...creating that supurb Windsor burble.the car will run always on 98.
ok but you haven't answered any questions so no one will be able to offer informed suggestions . . you can stroke it and make a monster out of it or just get a mild 30 hp increase out of it etc.
a monster might cost you $6000.00.
if you just want burble, put a cam in it and some compression and dual 2 1/4" exhaust and some flowmaster single chamber super 10 mufflers.
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Wow if its running ok and quite as a mouse LEAVE IT ALONE . If you want more power build another engine on the side and a C 4 auto ,and a least a 302 . Don't bother with the 260 at all ,you will be just wasting your money ,and who cares if its not the original engine and trans .
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A 260 even with a baby baby cam and a 4 barrel with a 2 speed auto just won't work .
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Wow if its running ok and quite as a mouse LEAVE IT ALONE . If you want more power build another engine on the side and a C 4 auto ,and a least a 302 . Don't bother with the 260 at all ,you will be just wasting your money ,and who cares if its not the original engine and trans .
I agree with Glenn,
Leave it alone....Don't waste your money.
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Why will it not work ? Yes but it is a bit smokey so is this not worth a rebuild ?
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Why will it not work ? Yes but it is a bit smokey so is this not worth a rebuild ?
you still haven't answered any questions.
if you want faster acceleration, the best way to achieve that is by installing numerically higher gears.
is your trans a 2 or 3 speed? . . if its a mustang its a 3 speed.
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Sorry if unclear
Not after a rocket ship after a bit more power and staying with the 2 speed they are a great box and I'm being told sort after
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Sorry if unclear
Not after a rocket ship after a bit more power and staying with the 2 speed they are a great box and I'm being told sort after
please answer all of these..
are you staying with a 2 barrel intake or will you switch to a 4v?
it will cost you around $900.00 to rebuild and upgrade your heads, is this ok?
are you willing to change your rear gear ratio?
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please answer all of these..
are you staying with a 2 barrel intake or will you switch to a 4v?
it will cost you around $900.00 to rebuild and upgrade your heads, is this ok?
are you willing to change your rear gear ratio?
Yes at this point 2 BRL
Yes rebuild heads ok to do if required ?
No change gear ratio
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Yes at this point 2 BRL
Yes rebuild heads ok to do if required ?
No change gear ratio
ok, i will be back in a couple minutes.
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I have nothing to offer compared to the very knowledgeable fellas already contributing. However, given that you say its a bit smoky your 52 year old 260 is likely to be down on compression with rings and/or valve seating issues, ie leaks. Just rebuilding it back to good health with good and even compression on all 8 will probably wake it up quite noticeably. If any of this other stuff being suggested like a different cam is within your budget and makes sense on the advice of these guys this would be the time to do it.
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Ok check this budget semi stroker out which will have substantially more hp and tq . . it is far from a tire roasting high revving combo . . it will increase your hp and tq EVERYWHERE in the rpm range and it will only cost around $650.00 more than a box stock rebuild.
Go to a crank grinder and buy a pre 1984 302 crank . . it might be around $350.00 . . you can also look on craigs list . . might find one for $100.00 that needs grinding . . there should be several around because people yank them out to make strokers . . this will make it a 272 ci with a standard bore and a 276 with a .030” over bore.
your crank will need regrinding anyway so all you are out is around $100.00 for a used core 302 crank.
you may also find one if you place a wanted add on the forum for one or just start a thread in this section asking for one . . same with the rods . . glenn, shaunp or boofhead might even have one or know where one is . . you could pm them and ask.
PS - 276 ci is more than half way to a 289. :smile01:
CONNECTING RODS
Buy used 302 rods . . should find some for maybe $70.00, or better yet, buy the ones below
$220.00 usd
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-25090p/overview/make/ford (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-25090p/overview/make/ford)
PISTONS
Ford 3.8 thunderbird supercoupe pistons [or 260 stroker pistons]1.615 compression height 13 cc .912 pin . . these will be at exactly 0 deck height on a stock block . . $400.00 usd
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wis-pt113a2/overview/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wis-pt113a2/overview/)
ROCKER STUDS
Put pins in them . . if you don’t your studs will pull up . . the pin kit is only $10.00 and fairly easy to install.
VALVES
Buy stock non rail rocker type 289 valves . . they will be more than big enough for your app and will not cost much extra in labor to install and your old valves may be worn out anyway so its almost a free upgrade
260 valves . . . in 1.59 . ex 1.39
289 valves . . . in 1.67 . ex 1.45
EXHAUST MANIFOLDS
260 thru 302 are all the same size so your stockers will be “ok”.
CYLINDER HEADS
have them milled to 49 cc's . . this will give you 9.0 compression with all the parts i mentioned . . you currently have around 8.6.
have them do a 3 angle cut on the seats and "back cut" the intake valve . . this will increase power and shouldn't cost much more than a standard valve job.
CAMSHAFT
$117.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-31-230-3/overview/make/ford (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-31-230-3/overview/make/ford)
VALVE SPRINGS
buy comp cam springs to match the cam . . the ones below are for that cam . . $61.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-942-16 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-942-16)
SPRING RETAINERS
$54.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-768-16 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-768-16)
VALVE LOCKS
$18.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-601-16 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-601-16)
LIFTERS
Comp lifters SUCK . . I use cranes $93.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99280-16/overview/make/ford (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99280-16/overview/make/ford)
ROCKER ARMS
if your rocker arms are worn on the tip at all, you need new ones . . i would buy the comp roller tips below because they are EXACTLY the same price as a set of stock ford replacement rocker arms.
$160.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1442-16/overview/make/ford (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1442-16/overview/make/ford)
DISTRIBUTOR AND IGNITION TIMING
1. buy the springs below and replace only the heavy stock ford spring with one of these . . leave the lighter stock spring in place.
$6.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-925d/overview/make/ford (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-925d/overview/make/ford)
2. unplug the distributor vacuum advance hose.
3. set the initial timing at 10 degrees btdc.
4. reconnect the hose to ported vacuum on the lower right side of carb.
CARBURETOR
Your stocker is a bit small . . you can buy a used orig 2 barrel cheap and use that . . your carb should have 1.01 on the side as shown below . . you want one that says 1.08 or 1.14
start with #52 main jets on any ford carb you use.
(http://www.mustangtek.com/2100/images/C2OF-AA_04.jpg)
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So as many of you know engine is coming out this weekend and many thanks for all top level knowledge and advice. I was told best to create a new thread about the rebuild procedure.
1. Trans will be rebuilt by a specialist in NSW
since you are increasing your hp, i would consider having the trans built with performance parts . . the high perf discs and bands are only around $60.00 more than regular good discs . . ask him to firm up the shift also if you want it more solid.
a common brand of high perf discs and bands is red alto and kolene . . bosch also has decent discs for stock type rebuilds and cost a few dollars less.
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since you are increasing your hp, i would consider having the trans built with performance parts . . the high perf discs and bands are only around $60.00 more than regular good discs . . ask him to firm up the shift also if you want it more solid.
a common brand of high perf discs and bands is red alto and kolene . . bosch also has decent discs for stock type rebuilds and cost a few dollars less.
Mate your knowledge is fantastic credit to you and the other posts too are solid. Remember I'm new to this so I am digesting this all. Links would help or my trans guy should know he was saying front seal might only need doing then adjustment of linkages to remove slop on colum
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Mate your knowledge is fantastic credit to you and the other posts too are solid. Remember I'm new to this so I am digesting this all. Links would help or my trans guy should know he was saying front seal might only need doing then adjustment of linkages to remove slop on colum
thanks.
so he is not going to rebuild it?
does it shift soft into second?
you obviously do not have a mustang so what do you have?
if he is a good tranny guy he will know exactly what i am talking about . . my experience with tranny guys is that most are a bit testy/grumpy and get annoyed easily, lol.
as far as the engine stuff goes, believe me it is nothing exotic . . it is all box stock parts . . it just looks overwhelming to you because it is a long list and you aren't familiar with engine stuff . . if you show this to any builder, they will say "ok where is the hard part?".
if you order the parts yourself it will cost you less.
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I've got a 66 289 intake and 2 barrel here you can have, if thats any bigger.
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I've got a 66 289 intake and 2 barrel here you can have, if thats any bigger.
generous offer!
the intake is the same but the 289 and 302 carbs are bigger.
just curious, what is the size on the side of the float bowl?
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hey ford compact 63 . . like i mentioned, these parts are so common people are even willing to give them away.
if you post a thread for a 302 crank and rods someone might even pay you to to take em away. :lmao:
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generous offer!
the intake is the same but the 289 and 302 carbs are bigger.
just curious, what is the size on the side of the float bowl?
133 does that sound right?
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133 does that sound right?
yes that is absolutely right...for a 390.
there are numbers on the left side of the base near the front also.
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yes that is absolutely right...for a 390.
there are numbers on the left side of the base near the front also.
60L
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60L
there should be a C before the 6 and sometimes a letter after the 4th digit . . i dint have my book here but with the 1.33 on the bowl and numbers on the base it is a 1966 autolite 390 carb of some sort.
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thanks.
so he is not going to rebuild it?
does it shift soft into second?
you obviously do not have a mustang so what do you have?
if he is a good tranny guy he will know exactly what i am talking about . . my experience with tranny guys is that most are a bit testy/grumpy and get annoyed easily, lol.
as far as the engine stuff goes, believe me it is nothing exotic . . it is all box stock parts . . it just looks overwhelming to you because it is a long list and you aren't familiar with engine stuff . . if you show this to any builder, they will say "ok where is the hard part?".
if you order the parts yourself it will cost you less.
Ok will show list tomorrow to micks motor sports
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Shaun is champion and well noted. Thanks mate
I will know more tomorrow after seeing two builders. Will show them the list.
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I will know more tomorrow after seeing two builders. Will show them the list.
ok, just kind of a suggestion, especially if you dont personally know these builders . . some [most] builders i know are a bit grumpy and dont really want to listen to what the customer has to say . . they simply want to build the engine "their way".
i can almost guarantee you that most will say that it is not worth getting a 302 crank, and rods just to increase the engine size by 10 cubic inches, however, i can guarantee you that it will in your case and it is a good option to achieve your goal . . i have built a LOT of these.
here's the deal...in general, if one wants "more power" and does not want to change the gears or loose their existing bottom end performance, the main options are listed below . . you can pick any single option or combination of options . . notice that a bigger camshaft is NOT on the list.
a. increase the engine size.
b. install a supercharger or blower.
c. run nitrous.
d increase compression.
bottom line, if you want anything on the list including the 302 crank and rods, don't let them talk you out of it and maybe consider using the builder that is the least resistant to doing what you want.
ADDITIONAL BUILD ITEMS
BALANCE ENGINE
be sure to do this because it will likely vibrate if you dont . . do the flywheel/flexplate and crank damper with it also.
CRANK DAMPER
yours is 50 years old so the rubber is getting old so i would buy a new one from pioneer, durabond or summit racing
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hey i have great news if you stroke it . . i kept digging and found some hypereutectic pistons for the same engine as the others i posted but they are around $260.00 usd LESS . . your engine builder will need to determine what the volume of the in the top of them is so he can mill your heads the correct amount to get the correct compression but this is easy to do . . they are somewhere around 13 cc's just like the other ones.
the "standard" pistons below are .011 inches bigger than a stock 260 . . this means that your engine builder can likely simply hone your cylinders out to size . . he will need to measure the wear on them first to be sure . . if this is the case, your engine will be easier to cool and you will save maybe $75.00 because he will not have to bore it too. :bow: :pepper:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128h-std (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128h-std)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128h-5mm (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128h-5mm)
these are the same pistons as the ones above except they have a special low friction coating on them which is nice and for just $15.00 more, i would be buying these instead.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128hc-std (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128hc-std)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128hc-5mm (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3128hc-5mm)
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Thanks Pal! You were right they want to do it their way ! Arrogant so I said f##k it and left.
So much to take in and who to trust is issue
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Thanks Pal! You were right they want to do it their way ! Arrogant so I said f##k it and left.
So much to take in and who to trust is issue
It will be fine just have them fit a small cam and I'd fit 351 valves when they do the ULP conversion shouldnt cost much more. Its just a stock windsor its a no brainer. These shops do modern multi valve multi cam engines, wont be an issue for a stockish build. Dont over think it.
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ok well that is a major bummer . . they may be very good builders but im guessing by your comments that they were more than grumpy, lol . . i can tell you this, i am not, nor do i claim to be, the best or most knowledgeable engine builder in the world, however, i have been building engines and repairing and restoring vintage cars for 42 years so i did learn a few things during that time . . i was also partners in the biggest mustang shop in the western us for around 20 years, and in fact, glenn from this forum was there and saw the shop . . we worked on several cars a day there so we saw a lot of things that many others did not.
anyway, in general, my attitude is this, most customers don't know what they really need or what the best, or highest quality parts are etc, and it is my job as a business owner to be polite and courteous to them and explain their options so they understand why i am suggesting the things i am because this is not only the right thing to do, it is also the intelligent thing to do . . this is because if i come across with an arrogant or better than they are attitude, they might just tell me to f off and walk out and take their money and their business elsewhere, and i am not rich enough that i can afford to have that happen . . also, in my business, i rely heavily on repeat customers and word of mouth advertising, where someone might say to their friends that have vintage cars or people at a car show etc, "hey, i went to this shop and they didn't treat like a moron and my car runs great now.". i am also a customer when i go somewhere to buy things, so i expect to be treated and talked to in a courteous manner and not made to feel like i am a moron even though i might be.
an engine build is a huge deal that is a lot of trouble and money, and its often being done on a car that the customer loves, so i think people should have a builder that makes them feel like they care [even if they really dont], and whom the customer is not afraid to ask questions of or come see the work being done . . hell, in our shop we not only let people watch us work, we often let customers work on their own cars and use our tools to do so.
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just curious , it sounds like they really pissed you off, so if you want, without mentioning their names, exactly what was it they said that annoyed you so much. . . there is certainly nothing wrong with the quality of any of the parts on that list.
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'. . hell, in our shop we not only let people watch us work, we often let customers work on their own cars and use our tools to do so"
Mate I applaud your great advice and awesome customer service but can I suggest you might want to rethink your workshop policy. Or at least check with your insurance company- have seen some successful businesses destroyed (through litigation) from seemingly trivial mishaps. (and serious accidents)
Sadly it's a reflection of the world we live in.
Cheers-
Layne
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'. . hell, in our shop we not only let people watch us work, we often let customers work on their own cars and use our tools to do so"
Mate I applaud your great advice and awesome customer service but can I suggest you might want to rethink your workshop policy. Or at least check with your insurance company- have seen some successful businesses destroyed (through litigation) from seemingly trivial mishaps. (and serious accidents)
Sadly it's a reflection of the world we live in.
Cheers-
Layne
sadly i agree . . this is in the us and there are a lot of sue happy people that don't want to assume responsibility for their own stupidity but we kind of filter those types out and don't let the others do anything dangerous and our floors were kept clean so no one would slip etc.
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Ok gents. As new title says. What do you think ? Can I be guided of parts to get to do this ?
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Ok gents. As new title says. What do you think ? Can I be guided of parts to get to do this ?
i don't understand your question.
if you are asking if you can build this on your own i would guess no . . its a lot more complicated and technical than pulling your engine and even if we describe the process, its hard to execute . . there may be helpful videos on it if you want to look and see if its too intimidating for you.
as far as parts goes theres not much to add to the lists that i can think of and you still need the parts machined.
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i don't understand your question.
if you are asking if you can build this on your own i would guess no . . its a lot more complicated and technical than pulling your engine and even if we describe the process, its hard to execute . . there may be helpful videos on it if you want to look and see if its too intimidating for you.
as far as parts goes theres not much to add to the lists that i can think of and you still need the parts machined.
Ok well scrap DIY engine build.
I want to gather all my parts to take to builder. I would like to build it back to factory HOWEVER while engine is stripped add some goodies and this is where I need help.
I have a new Airtrex water pump to go in but also want new fuel pump new oil pump and full gasket set. Does this make sense ?
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Ok well scrap DIY engine build.
I want to gather all my parts to take to builder. I would like to build it back to factory HOWEVER while engine is stripped add some goodies and this is where I need help.
I have a new Airtrex water pump to go in but also want new fuel pump new oil pump and full gasket set. Does this make sense ?
Basic rebuild job just let the reco shop do it, they will get the parts cheaper then you can, you are likly just wasting your time and theirs. Just have them convert the heads to ULP, oil pump is like $50, if you are leaving it stock just leave them to do it and give it back, they will have access to new camshafts if you want a mild torque cam fitted. I would assume the bill will be around $3k, the heads will be around $1000-1200 to do, $1000 to machine the rest of the engine rest of the parts and assembly labour would be another $1000, its never going to make alot of power, so just have them reco it basically stock save for ULP conversion on the heads and a small torque cam, in this case even a generic Dynotec cam would be fine, it will need a new cam for sure, anything else is a waste of money in this engine. You'll find just rebuilt with some compression it will go much better. Its really not cost effective to do anything else with it. Tell them you want Moly rings though.
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Basic rebuild job just let the reco shop do it, they will get the parts cheaper then you can, you are likly just wasting your time and theirs. Just have them convert the heads to ULP, oil pump is like $50, if you are leaving it stock just leave them to do it and give it back, they will have access to new camshafts if you want a mild torque cam fitted. I would assume the bill will be around $3k, the heads will be around $1000-1200 to do, $1000 to machine the rest of the engine rest of the parts and assembly labour would be another $1000, its never going to make alot of power, so just have them reco it basically stock save for ULP conversion on the heads and a small torque cam, in this case even a generic Dynotec cam would be fine, it will need a new cam for sure, anything else is a waste of money in this engine. You'll find just rebuilt with some compression it will go much better. Its really not cost effective to do anything else with it. Tell them you want Moly rings though.
Sean why so down on the 260 ?
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I'm not down on it but there is little point trying to make it much faster, just make it new is what I'm saying, like it was back in 63 but so it will run and last, on un leaded, if you want it faster put a roller cam 302 in it with a C4. Just reco it and leave it or you are just murdering your money, is my point, its not cost effective, you want to keep the car pretty original which is fine, so just do that.
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he's just trying to get you the best bang for your buck . . if you use stock heads and put 4k into a 260 and 4k into a 302, the 260 might gain 50 hp but the 302 might gain 100 plus it has maybe 30 more to start with . . if you do the build i suggested, it will have a very noticeable increase in power, but building a 302 is a bit more practical if you want more power, however, you still have to buy the 302 core engine, therefore, it's not really going to be the same total price for both engines anyway.
since you want to keep the orig matching motor and want iron heads or the orig heads, you should do that and simply know that the build i suggested will not turn it into a tire roasting monster . . it will do exactly what i said it will, nothing less and nothing more . . as long as you are happy with that and are happy with what it will cost you to achieve that goal then that is what i would do.
heck someone here already offered you a crank if you want to go that way, so that challenge may have been resolved, however, i would still check for an early 302 crank at crank shops so you can use the same flex plate and same type crank damper.
if you don't do the mini stroker and just do a basic rebuild, then i would do as i and shaun suggested, which is increase your compression and install a small cam . . in your case i would use a comp xe256h then advance it 4 degrees on the crank with the adjustable timing chain . . this will give you a slight increase in power that will be noticeable if you are paying attention to it but it won't be an "omg, i definitely feel more power now." moment . . that's the best i can explain n it.
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Ok well scrap DIY engine build.
I want to gather all my parts to take to builder. I would like to build it back to factory HOWEVER while engine is stripped add some goodies and this is where I need help.
I have a new Airtrex water pump to go in but also want new fuel pump new oil pump and full gasket set. Does this make sense ?
the gasket set is mandatory with an engine rebuild . . the water pump and fuel pump are food ideas . . buy a carter fuel pump.
if you wanted some experience, you could probably install the heads, lifters, push rods and intake yourself with some guidance, however, unlike last time when removing the engine, you would need to follow the instructions exactly as written step by step or you might f it up . . there is no point in taking a lot of time to write instructions if you don't follow them.
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302's are dime a dozen, I got given a roller cam 302 yesterday from a 90's falcon ute, that has a noise in it like a dead lifter.
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302's are dime a dozen, I got given a roller cam 302 yesterday from a 90's falcon ute, that has a noise in it like a dead lifter.
wow, they are at least $500.00 in the us for any year and thats if you are lucky and a standard bore pre 50 oz 302 is basically non existent and commands more than that.
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wow, they are at least $500.00 in the us for any year and thats if you are lucky and a standard bore pre 50 oz 302 is basically non existent and commands more than that.
Buy a whole Falcon for $500. $500 for a good runner. If he didnt have a 5 bolt auto, I;d just stick a $500 roller cam in it with a carb.
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The other thing to consider is this is a 53 year old engine, it may have been rebuilt before and may already be 30 over, in which case it maybe toast anyway, then a 302 is the best option, other then a Saturday night special job on the 260 (a la Superformance in the 80's hey Glen). If this block is toast you'll be lucky to find another 5 bolt block.
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Saturday night special ,well that's Chevy talk :grin: . In the USA its not a engine is it mike :thud: . That 260 block most likely wont rebore at all if its not std bore size now and even if it is you will be lucky .
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The other thing to consider is this is a 53 year old engine, it may have been rebuilt before and may already be 30 over, in which case it maybe toast anyway, then a 302 is the best option, other then a Saturday night special job on the 260 (a la Superformance in the 80's hey Glen). If this block is toast you'll be lucky to find another 5 bolt block.
All standard original 60 thou miles on this 63
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Saturday night special ,well that's Chevy talk :grin: . In the USA its not a engine is it mike :thud: . That 260 block most likely wont rebore at all if its not std bore size now and even if it is you will be lucky .
Superformance at Capalaba used to do a Chev engine back in the 80's called a Saturday night special , yunk yard engine with rings bearings and an Ivan Tighe cam. They sold heaps of them.
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Saturday night special ,well that's Chevy talk :grin: . In the USA its not a engine is it mike :thud:
i looked up the word chevrolet in the dictionary . . there was no description but there was this photo which i didn't quite understand.
(http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp161/janewli15/turd.gif)
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Ford compact . . pay no attention to the negative nancies, they’re just 260 haters. :thumbdown: :smile01:
CYLINDER BORE SIZE CHECK
1. Remove valve cover and remove a cylinder head using a LONG breaker bar on the bolts . . It "should have alignment dowel pins in it so it "should" not fall off if the engine is sitting straight up in normal position . . if you are concerned that it might fall off, just rotate the engine on your rotating stand until the head is facing straight up.
IT MAY BE STUCK YO THE HEAD GASKET . . IF IT IS YOU CAN PUT A CROWBAR IN AN INTAKE OR EXHAUST PORT AND PRY IT OFF.
2. Scrub the top of the piston with a steel or brass wire brush and carburetor cleaner or paint thinner to remove the carbon.
3. If it has been bored out larger than stock, there will be a small engraved number on the top of the piston near the center . . it should say .020 or .030 or .040 . . there may be additional numbers . . tell us all the numbers you see.
CYLINDER LINER RUST CHECK
1. Take an old medium sized blade screw driver and a hammer.
2. place the screw driver against the edge of the freeze plug and beat the crap out of it . . it should” push that edge inward and the other edge outward kinda sorta.
3. grab the lip of the plug with channel locks or vice grips and pry it out.
4. get a flashlight and look in the hole at the cylinder wall . . it will be rusty . . if the rust is fairly smooth, it is likely ok to bore to .040” over . . if the rusty looks thick, it may not go .040 without running a little warm/hot.
5. it can be kept cool with a good cooling system but if the rust is really thick I would not go .040.
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You can just get the bores sonic tested if needs be, I think its best if he just lets the engine shop work it out If its only done 60 k mile its likely standard bore so you will it be ok I suspect,
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You can just get the bores sonic tested if needs be, I think its best if he just lets the engine shop work it out If its only done 60 k mile its likely standard bore so you will it be ok I suspect,
yes but the reason i didn't mention that is because it is around $250.00 usd to do in the us which is nuts so i figuered i would try and save him some money . . if his cylinders don't look very scaly inside the water jacket, its not really necessary . . even with core shift blocks, i have been able to cool them in 100 degree heat if they were .040" over.
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I'm sure the shop will measure and hot tank it first up, before they start, that's normally what happens and they can decide what it needs, I assume the shop he is going to is reputable, in which case they will be fine with and old Windsor, no brainer compared to modern multi valve , multi cam engines. Best for him to not over think it.
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Ok guys have rung a few places.
Looking at between 5500 and 6500 for rebuild!
What are your opinions on run in procedures as two places said they just give the built motor back and we can install and one place said it must be dyno run in?
Getting baffled guys.
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Ok guys have rung a few places.
Looking at between 5500 and 6500 for rebuild!
What are your opinions on run in procedures as two places said they just give the built motor back and we can install and one place said it must be dyno run in?
Getting baffled guys.
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No need to dyno run, a stockish engine just bed the cam. 5k is about correct for a properly rebuilt engine. They may want to do it, so you don't screw it up, lots of people damage the cam in the first 5 mins running.
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Ok guys have rung a few places.
Looking at between 5500 and 6500 for rebuild!
That better include the mini stroker kit and head mods. :lmao:
What are your opinions on run in procedures as two places said they just give the built motor back and we can install and one place said it must be dyno run in?
I have never gotten a flat cam using my patented procedure below.
INTAKE MANIFOLD AND VALVE COVER BOLTS
Check them for tightness, they may have loosened.
OIL
Joe gibbs break in oil
PRIME
Spin oil pump with 1/2” drill for 30 seconds.
Turn crank 180 degrees and spin pump for 10 seconds
Turn crank 180, spin for 10.
Turn 180, spin for 10.
VALVE SPRINGS
If you have a non roller cam and your spring pressure is more than around 280, I would consider removing the inner valve springs for break in if you have duals . . You can also have cams pre-broken in by Cam Research or other shop.
VALVE LASH
comp lifters are crap and they may make a ticking sound . . Adjust the comp lifters to 1/2 turn preload.
TIMING
Turn engine until intake valve is fully closed then turn almost 1/2 turn until you see timing marks on damper and line them up with tdc.
Remove distributor cap and make sure the rotor is pointing to number 1 cylinder spark plug wire.
Remove all plug wires except for number 1 cylinder.
Plug the distributor vacuum advance until after break in then plug it into ported vacuum providing there is no vacuum at the port at idle.
Connect timing lite and turn engine over by jumping the two forward posts together in the starter solenoid with a short screw driver etc ir have someone operate the key and set it to 10 btdc.
Reconnect plug wires.
THERMOSTAT
Remove it
RADIATOR FLUID
Use water only and and fill it to 1 inch below bottom of filler neck.
HOSES
Tighten them, then tighten them again.
FAN
Put a big one in front of the rad.
STARTING
Have someone start if while you operate the throttle on the carb.
Instantly rev it up to around 2000 rpm and set idle screw.
After a few minutes the rpm will increase, reduce it to 2000 rpm and maintain this rpm for 30 minutes.
AFTER BREAK IN
Let engine cool for 30 minutes.
Re-check intake manifold and valve cover bolts and fan belt tension and hoses.
Re-install 180 - 185 thermostat.
Refill with water and let idle for 7 minutes.
Turn off and open lever on rad cap to release pressure.
Fill it to 1 inch below the bottom of the filler neck.
Test drove for 30 minutes . . Accelerate from 40 to 65 kph then immediately back down to 40 kph around every 3 minutes . . This will help break the things in more quickly.
Drain water and install anti freeze.
Let idle for 7 minutes.
Turn off and open lever on rad cap to release pressure.
Fill it to 1 inch below the bottom of the filler neck.
OIL AND FILTER CHANGE
After 200 miles.
............................Then...
:bow: . (https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSVYREGxzg6Fe0suhODFRcEOikLVimMChqdk3ZO_rr153W6aHQs)
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This is exactly my thoughts Shaun re cam I was told this today !
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This is exactly my thoughts Shaun re cam I was told this today !
What is "re-cam"?
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What is "re-cam"?
Re is regarding
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As Jules said, 'english, you do speak it?'
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As Jules said, 'english, you do speak it?'
"Speaketh I not the language from the land of thy almighty Roo, therefore I beseech thee to bestowest thine wisdom in in it's mysterious proverbs with patience and kindness for all the days of our lives...ahmen."
psalm 23, verse 7, from the book of barnett :thumb:
. . :thud:
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Let me firstly say I strongly recommend you pay attention more attention to Shaun than to me.
Like me, it seems your mechanical knowledge has its limitations. If you end up looking after the initial start up and cam bed in yourself make sure you get the oil pressure up and have the distributor in the right ballpark so it will start with as little cranking as possible. Once its going run it for 20 minutes or so at about 2,000 rpm (right Shaun?) to bed the cam in. Continual cranking and stuffing around trying to get it going could see your cam toasted before you've even started the engine.
If you get the engine back with the distributor already in it (presumably in the ballpark) and, like me, are nervous about taking it out to prime the oil pressure I did it with a pressurised garden sprayer. I have posted this procedure here in the past.
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Yeah you need to fire them straight up, I prime the oil pump with a drill, stick in the dissy and light the fire. 20min I normally vary the speed around a little averaging 2k though just no low speed. The reason it really to make sure there is enough oil splash thrown off the crank to keep the cam wet while it work hardens. Cam lobes rely purely on splash. The initial bed in work hardens the surface. Dont cook/boil it while bedding the cam.
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Superformance at Capalaba used to do a Chev engine back in the 80's called a Saturday night special , yunk yard engine with rings bearings and an Ivan Tighe cam. They sold heaps of them.
Does it make me old that I remember them..?
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Does it make me old that I remember them..?
hopefully only if you used them pete!
you shouldve said " when i was my early teens i remember...yada yada..." :grin:
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hopefully only if you used them pete!
you shouldve said " when i was my early teens i remember...yada yada..." :grin:
Grandpa told me about em......
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Does it make me old that I remember them..?
I guess it makes you about the same as me. A mate had a 400 Chev Saturday night special, with Fuely heads in a HQ Premier wagon, went like a train
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My 64 is a 260 car and has a 289 fitted but came with the original engine.
I did some research a few years ago on the American forums trying to decide whether to rebuild the 260 or stick with the 289 and the yanks reckon it's really hard to get any performance out of the 260. There's so much good stuff available over there you'd think they could do it. Can't remember specifics but I decided to stay with the 289.
Pete
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Gents
Engine in for full rebuild with some mild performance modifications. Can anyone assist with CAM advice type and brand ? :thumb:
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Gents
Engine in for full rebuild with some mild performance modifications.
xln't, so finally found a builder that wasn't an a hole?
Can anyone assist with CAM advice type and brand ? :thumb:
Absolutely not until you tell us EXACTLY what the performance mods are because EVERYTHING must be matched to achieve the best performance.
we also need to know if you are putting pins in the studs as i suggested or are installing screw in studs . . if you do neither, you should not run a cam any bigger than a stock one as i previously mentioned.
we also need to know what trans and rear gears you will be using.
this being said, from what i can remember, my guess is that a very good cam for your application would be a comp xr256h.
here it is.
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=798&sb=0 (http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=798&sb=0)
buy it here p/n cc-31-234-3
http://www.vpw.com.au/Category/Index/401430 (http://www.vpw.com.au/Category/Index/401430)
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Yep that will do.
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oops . . i forgot to remind you . . do NOT use comp cam lifters...EVER . . buy cranes.
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Hi guys engine builder said he will do some head work and no cam required he will get more HP from head work
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no cam required
Sounds like a rotary engine :therethere:
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Sounds like a rotary engine :therethere:
What do you mean moe?
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Rotary engines don't use a cam shaft. You mentioned that a cam was not required.
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That's not what I meant I meant no after market
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I'd still look around for a cam, even an economy grind with a bit more low down torque.
From memory, the firing order changed during the evolution of the Windsor, Just wondering what shaunp's and barnett468's view is of getting a different cam to allow for the firing order to be changed, at the same time, going for a bit more of an increase in torque off the line.
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My advice is to change the cam, it will need a new one anyway, a small torque cam such as the Extreme energy suggested is a good choice. I never fit a standard cam in an engine, cam design has come a long way in the last 50 odd years, you have to buy one anyway, so a small modern design with more area under the curve is the way to go.
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Yes Shaun I agree builder doesn't. What is the exact one on that link and cost ?
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Yes Shaun I agree builder doesn't. What is the exact one on that link and cost ?
1. your builder sounds like he is WAY behind the times to me . . there is no such thing as a factory cam for these anymore that i know of . . even if there was, there is no logic in using a design that is 50 years old.
2. i already posted the cam i think you should use and shaun already agreed and i think either shaun or boofhead suggested nearly the same one at the beginning of your thread . . i also posted the links to where to buy it here at vpw in oz and they include the price and they will likely even knock a few dollars off if you snivel about the price . . i guess you didn't read my post . . i suggest you do because there is more pertinent info there.
3. you also didn't answer a single one of my questions so everybody has to guess what will work best.
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oops . . i forgot to remind you . . do NOT use comp cam lifters...EVER . . buy cranes.
Can you elaborate on this a bit more. I have found on some other forums complaints about noisy hydraulic roller lifters. I assume that if the spring rates are correct and that the lifters have been installed to specs that the roller lifter should roll over the cam lobe and not tick. Could this be an oil issue?
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I'm all for a cam. He isn't. Said he will reface my rocket arms and do new Pistons rings etc with head work for performance.
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My advice is to change the cam, it will need a new one anyway, a small torque cam such as the Extreme energy suggested is a good choice. I never fit a standard cam in an engine, cam design has come a long way in the last 50 odd years, you have to buy one anyway, so a small modern design with more area under the curve is the way to go.
Even at 60 thou original miles Shaun?
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Even at 60 thou original miles Shaun?
They are just not worth reusing, cam and lifters every time, like timing chains, chuck them put new ones in. Unless he is going to do a whole heap of head work such as bigger valves etc, its the cam that will wake it up, its always the the cam that wakes them up. Sound to me like he is just chucking a set of rings in it to stop it smoking.
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I'm all for a cam. He isn't. Said he will reface my rocket arms and do new Pistons rings etc with head work for performance.
your engine has 60,000 miles on it and he is NOT going to bore it out . . i seriously doubt your bore is going to be good enough to do that . . it would be a miracle if it was . . i would have him show you how much out of round it is and how much taper it has but im going to bet you it is out by at least .0015 inches in both directions which is too much for an engine that you never ever want to rebuild again after all this effort and time.
i also seriously doubt that shaun or boofhead would do that either but you can ask them but i guarantee you that i certainly wouldnt.
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do it right the first time and you will only have to do it once.
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Can you elaborate on this a bit more. I have found on some other forums complaints about noisy hydraulic roller lifters. I assume that if the spring rates are correct and that the lifters have been installed to specs that the roller lifter should roll over the cam lobe and not tick. Could this be an oil issue?
sure . . i am referring to the comp non roller lifters but it applies to their base model pos roller lifters also . . they are simply crap, crap, crap and are made in india . . im telling you this and i am a comp cam dealer, lol.
the cranes are [or used to be] the best non roller lifters on the planet for the money.
the ticking sound typically comes from poor internals.
the lifter game is a big shell game . . there are only 2 or 3 lifter mfgs in the us.
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Are you joking ,the engine builder wants to do a port job on the heads ,then run a std cam , and not even a rebore . If its such a budget rebuild get the heads rebuilt .and they will cost enough without spending another $500 on them with a port job . If the engine is stripped ask him what it needs from start to finish before you go any further . I would have taken it to Chris sms777 on here or big Al ,at least of one of the guys on this forum .
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also, if he does bore it, you should only go .020" over because it will leave more material on the cylinder walls which will help with cooling plus it gives you two bores left in your engine instead of one and the .020" pistons are the same size as the others so there is no a single reason to go .030" over instead of .020".
here they are.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-s1106-020/overview/make/ford (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-s1106-020/overview/make/ford)
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Thanks to all involved here. I'm meeting with builder when engine is pulled down. Will insist on new cam ARP studs and felpro gaskets, carter fuel pump and new oil pump and airtex water pump
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Thanks to all involved here. I'm meeting with builder when engine is pulled down. Will insist on new cam ARP studs and felpro gaskets, carter fuel pump and new oil pump and airtex water pump
why dont you just buy these parts and hand them to him
if you are talking about arp bolts for the rods, you dont need them . . if you want to make them stronger, all you need is arp rod nits . . he will need to check the rod size after he torques them.
also, dont forget about the cylinder bore and the crane lifters etc..
it might be better if you just write down exactly what we suggest and hand it to him and tell him to do it . . as i mentioned before, i have built a zillion engines and on a simple project like this, i am ecstatic if the owner brings me a list and says this is what i want as long as they are not crap parts.
i never did understand this arrogant attitude some engine builders have . . its not f'n rocket science.
a bosch water pump is also fine.
the oil pump should be a standard mellings . . i would take it all apart to make sure its clean inside first.
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if you are talking about arp bolts for the rods, you dont need them . . if you want to make them stronger, all you need is arp rod nits . . he will need to check the rod size after he torques them.
also, dont forget about the cylinder bore and the crane lifters etc..
it might be better if you just write down exactly what we suggest and hand it to him and tell him to do it . . as i mentioned before, i have built a zillion engines and on a simple project like this, i am ecstatic if the owner brings me a list and says this is what i want as long as they are not crap parts.
i never did understand this arrogant attitude some engine builders have . . its not f'n rocket science.
a bosch water pump is also fine.
List is being made as we speak your advice is appreciated :thumb:
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List is being made as we speak your advice is appreciated :thumb:
we are all just trying to help you and keep you from getting f'd because we all actually really do know what exactly what the f we're doing . . i built my first engine in 1974.
also, if you run premium gas like 95 octane or more, you absolutely, positively, need to use head gaskets that are thinner than stock if your pistons are below the block surface which they almost always are unless the block has been milled IF you want to get the most performance you can out of it . . unfortunately, the cost of these gaskets is around $130 aud each . . vpw has them as well as an ebay seller.
i had skev do the same thing and he is quite happy.
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FC63 have you parted with any money to 'the builder' ?
if he isnt a relative or very close friend ill say what others are alluding to.....
TAKE YOUR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE.
unfortunately you dont have the knowledge as yet to walk in and start convincing him of what has been put fwd on this forum, you may have the balls but theres a good chance youll only end up backing down and cursing yourself later. we actually do have your best interests at heart mate.
however, if he's already got your engine hit the fire alarm, load it into your boot and drive!! :burnout:
griff
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Yes Shaun I agree builder doesn't. What is the exact one on that link and cost ?
hey...if this guy is telling you to reuse your same 50 year old camshaft that has 60,000 kilos or miles on it, and you told him you wanted a new one then 'im sorry but he has to be the dumbest engine builders on the planet.
if he wants to reuse 60,000 mile worn pistons, on 60,000 mile worn bores with a 60,000 mile worn cam AND this genius said he can port your heads for you, he has been suckin back WAY too many cold tasty Fosters Lagers...Australia's favorite beer. :lmao:
. . :thud:
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Wow, Fosters Largers, isn't that the crap we send to the USA, i haven't seen that in years.
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Ok so visited engine builder had all my parts layed out.
All acid dipped sand blasted etc etc
It appears this 260 has had some work!
Non stocker cam he said as lumps in lobes and triple timing chain. He said cam has done no work as he measured.
Doing - big ends - valves - rings no Pistons - honing and new oil pump - fuel pump - thermostat
Any opinions ?
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Ok he must know what's he is doing . It must have been in good condition then other than rings and valves . You should get hardened seats for the heads then while the heads are apart . Crank must be good also but I'm sure he will clean it up too . Should work out a lot cheaper than a total rebuild .
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Opinions, yes . . since you are clearly not happy with the way that cam ran, have him index it and give us the info so we know what it is so we can tell you if a different cam will be better for your app.
for the bazillionth time, i would pin the rocker studs, especially now that you know it has a cam that is bigger than stock.
once again, i would get the cylinder and piston measurements from him and post them.
i would have him measure the spring rate and length and give us that along with the installed height distance.
the bottom line is that if you rebuild it exactly the way it is, it will run exactly the way it did when you removed it, and since he claims that from what he has seen so far, it has little wear in it, i for one have absolutely no idea why you took it out in the first place, because unfortunately, it sounds like a waste of money to me at this point.
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Opinions, yes . . since you clearly nit happy with the way that cam ran, have him index it and give us the info so we know what it is so we can tell you if a different cam will be better for your app.
for the bazillionth time, i would pin the rocker studs, especially now that you know it has a cam that is bigger than stock.
once again, i would get the cylinder and piston measurements from him and post them.
i would have him measure the spring rate and length and give us that along with the installed height distance.
the bottom line is that if you rebuild it exactly the way it is, it will run exactly the way it did when you removed it and since he claims that from what he has seen so far, it has little wear in it so, i for one have absolutely no idea why you took it out in the first place because unfortunately, it sounds like a waste of money to me at this point.
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Will try get this info
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More info today. Engine ready tomorrow. Valves have been refaced and more air flow added to increase performance. Additive still to be used was recommended.
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You should have done the heads for unleaded ,not relied on additive .
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You should have done the heads for unleaded ,not relied on additive .
Thought so too but builder said not required use additive lead
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Thought so too but builder said not required use additive lead
well that makes no sense does it? . . if its not required then why does he say you need additive? . . there's a rather big hole in his theory since he's obviously contradicting himself . . no, its not "required" IF you use a band aid like an additive to compensate for not having them.
keep in mind that this band aid additive will now also be going thru the entire top end of your newly rebuilt engine, PLUS the stuff isnt cheap and in the long run, it would probably have worked out cheaper to install the seats in the first place unless he wanted something like $300.00 aud or more to do it.
yes, hardened seats would last 200,000 miles and the seats in your heads will not even with additive . . it used to be that you could grind the orig seats in the heads and still get 120,000 miles out of them running unleaded . . i know this because my friend did it but one of the problems with doing this in the us that due to environmental regulations, we now have gas that has a ton of cleaners in it and this leaves the valves and sears so clean that they microweld themselves to each other which decreases their life . . i have no idea about the gas in oz . . that being said, it is likely that you could reduce this microwelding by dumping a few ounces ot tranny fluid in the gas tank every time you fill it up.
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I have been following this thread from day dot.To date it goes from bad to worse,get the heads done to run unleaded.Given the specs you have put up 91 would be fine it,s not going to be a street brawler.
By the way the engine guy sounds a bit dodgy,but then again we don't know what you budgeted for and asked for.
Should have bought a crate motor
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I don't bother with any additives ,it just soots up the plugs on short runs .
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Thought so too but builder said not required use additive lead
Just remember that you are the customer. Is he giving you a good deal?
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Ok so visited engine builder had all my parts layed out.
new oil pump - fuel pump - thermostat
Any opinions ?
yes:
carter fuel pump.
180 - 185 thermostat.
joe gibbs break in oil or similar for break in.
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Just remember that you are the customer. Is he giving you a good deal?
Moe I wasnt after a good deal I was after a good job and knowledge, his workshop is clean and had modified windsors and Chevy engines being built
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I have been following this thread from day dot.To date it goes from bad to worse,get the heads done to run unleaded.Given the specs you have put up 91 would be fine it,s not going to be a street brawler.
By the way the engine guy sounds a bit dodgy,but then again we don't know what you budgeted for and asked for.
Should have bought a crate motor
Really ?
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You should have put hard seats in it, its like $25 per cylinder.
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You should have put hard seats in it, its like $25 per cylinder.
I know but under his guidance as he is the builder and I'm trusting him not that I don't trust your advice Shaun!
He said it's not needed he Refaced and new lifters etc
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If you're getting an engine rebuild done I'm not sure of a reason why you wouldn't be putting hardened seats in while your doing it? :shrug: I'd insist on it.
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If you're getting an engine rebuild done I'm not sure of a reason why you wouldn't be putting hardened seats in while your doing it? :shrug: I'd insist on it.
I know I'm was hoping he would do it but said run 98 octane and additive and it will run forever ...
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I know I'm was hoping he would do it but said run 98 octane and additive and it will run forever ...
Aren't you the one that's paying him to do the rebuild? If you want it done, tell him that's what you want. Why do you want to be stuffing around with additive?
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Aren't you the one that's paying him to do the rebuild? If you want it done, tell him that's what you want! Why do you want to be stuffing around with additive?
I did talk to him about it but felt my knowledge wasn't up to scratch
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If it was my engine I would have done it ( hardened seats ) . Anyway to late now and if the valves are good etc it will be fine as long as its not a Dailey driver . I wouldn't bother will additive unless you drive on a real long trip , 200 Klms plus at one time then I would put some in . Why did he say 98 fuel surely 95 will be ok unless it has high compression ,ask him what the compression ratio is . It will be fine and good luck with the rest of your venture :thumb: .
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Additive is shit really, it fowls the plugs around town makes them idle rough, waste of time, I wont use it,anymore day to day and I tried it in many cars, Only time I put it in a car is for a high speed running. I dont see the point of not spending the money on hard seats, if you rebuilding it, I really don't, its just something less to worry about. I'm not sure why he dosn't want to do it.
It adds about $200 to the price of the job, its just silly.
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I did talk to him about it but felt my knowledge wasn't up to scratch
Compact while i do feel sorry for your lack of knowledge, which will come with time, youve really got to grow some balls mate.
once your engine is done you wont be his customer again nor on his Christmas card list. youre the one spending the money so act accordingly with all of the overwhelming advice.
i'll say it again, grow some balls son. :toetapping:
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Compact while i do feel sorry for your lack of knowledge, which will come with time, youve really got to grow some balls mate.
once your engine is done you wont be his customer again nor on his Christmas card list. youre the one spending the money so act accordingly with all of the overwhelming advice.
i'll say it again, grow some balls son. :toetapping:
I got balls trust me in what I know. I hear you griff I do I'm just hoping his advice and build is what it's supposed to be. I'm hoping to post up specs tomorrow and picture of completed build... I don't want engine out again :ouch:
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If it was my engine I would have done it ( hardened seats ) . Anyway to late now and if the valves are good etc it will be fine as long as its not a Dailey driver . I wouldn't bother will additive unless you drive on a real long trip , 200 Klms plus at one time then I would put some in . Why did he say 98 fuel surely 95 will be ok unless it has high compression ,ask him what the compression ratio is . It will be fine and good luck with the rest of your venture :thumb: .
:agree: :agree: :agree: with Glenn
While I'm at it is he fitting a one piece rear main seal or two piece? If he (the builder) doesn't know how to fit the 2 piece seal properly it WILL leak.
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Additive is shit really, it fowls the plugs around town makes them idle rough, waste of time, I wont use it,anymore day to day and I tried it in many cars, Only time I put it in a car is for a high speed running. I dont see the point of not spending the money on hard seats, if you rebuilding it, I really don't, its just something less to worry about. I'm not sure why he dosn't want to do it.
It adds about $200 to the price of the job, its just silly.
Also :agree: :agree: :agree: with shaunp
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Compact while i do feel sorry for your lack of knowledge, which will come with time, youve really got to grow some balls mate.
once your engine is done you wont be his customer again nor on his Christmas card list. youre the one spending the money so act accordingly with all of the overwhelming advice.
i'll say it again, grow some balls son. :toetapping:
Very true griff. I wonder what kind of warranty the builder will give our fellow member?
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his advice about the valve seats is seriously floored mate, it'd be game over for me.
i consider the advice given by some of the guys on this forum as top shelf and i havent seen anyone agree with your engine builder on this topic.
you cant see something is wrong with this?
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his advice about the valve seats is seriously floored mate, it'd be game over for me.
i consider the advice given by some of the guys on this forum as top shelf and i havent seen anyone agree with your engine builder on this topic.
you cant see something is wrong with this?
True again griff,no one on here agrees with the builder. Then again we don't know who he really is.
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his advice about the valve seats is seriously floored mate, it'd be game over for me.
i consider the advice given by some of the guys on this forum as top shelf and i havent seen anyone agree with your engine builder on this topic.
you cant see something is wrong with this?
I can griff but stuffed now
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I can griff but stuffed now
Sorry that's the wrong attitude. You have the wallet so you (should) have the upper hand.
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We are all trying to steer you in a forward direction not backwards!!!!
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I know I'm was hoping he would do it but said run 98 octane and additive and it will run forever ...
What is the EXACT NAME of the additive he told you to use?
aside from the incredibly bizarre suggestion to run additive instead of installing har seats the suggestion to run friggen rocket fuel that costs a zillion dollars a liter in a tiny box stock 260 ci engine that only has 160 hp is extremely suspicious to me . .the only logical reason in the world to do this is if your engine has a lot of compression . . the only reason your engine would have a lot of compression is if he milled the shit out of your heads . . the only reason to mill the shit out of your heads is if it has a huge cam and it has 300 hp but your engine does not have either of those things, so if it were me, i would ask him exactly what the cc [volume] of the heads is . . i would also ask him why he suggests you use rocket fuel instead of 95 octane like it should because this is an extremely concerning issue.
if he is suggesting to use 98 because he thinks it will make the valves last longer, than simply ask him exactly why he thinks that, because in the usa, the higher octane would have absolutely no affect on the valves, so unless you have some incredibly shitty 95 octane, or some incredibly magical 98 octane, the only reason to do this is because he milled the shit out of your heads without telling you or asking you first, which i would consider a problem.
also, if he milled the shit out of your heads and did not 0 deck your block, this is shear incompetence and could explain why he says you need 98 octane.
Also, for him to knowingly use a cam that is bigger than stock and not pin the rockers like i said you should as insurance around 3 months ago shows that he is either negligent or simply has no experience with these engines because next to the valves getting burnt which is simple, natural wear, studs lifting in the heads is the NUMBER ONE problem with these engines.
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HERE'S SOME MATH
Ok one common lead substitute additive is from red line . . it is around $12.00 usd a bottle . . it is 12 us ounces . . it takes around 6 ounces per 10 us gallons so it costs you a little more than $6.00 usd every time you fill up.
Lets say your car gets an average of 12 miles to a gallon when combining both street and highway driving so that’s 120 miles per tank or per 10 gallons to be more specific.
250 us gallons or around 25 tanks of gas will get you 2,900 miles or 4,667 k's and cost you $150.00 usd which is around $200.00 aud which is how much shaunp said it “should” cost to have hard seats installed and he should certainly know.
So…after you use 25 tanks of gas, you could have had seats installed and not had to runs this shit thru your entire top end of you newly “rebuilt” engine.
Now…we are not done yet . . you now have to add the additional cost of the 98 octane vs the 95 and after doing that, you will likely have been able to pay for seats after maybe only 20 tanks of gas.
Now, I use 1 tank of gas every few days . . if you only use 1 tank of gas a month, you could have paid for the seats in a little over 1 ½ years but I’ll use 2 years to be generous . . now if say that you will keep the car for 10 years, then you simply multiply 8 years times 80 more tanks of gas at 6.00 for the additive plus the additional 1.50 per tank for the 98 vs the 95 octane to see that it will cost you around an additional $610.00 usd or $768.162 asd . . now, if you use MORE than 3/4 of a tank a month, the cost will increase proportionately.
perhaps if you mention this very simple 8th grade math formula to your builder, he will gladly reduce the price of your engine by that amount since it was his idea to do what he wanted and not what you, the paying customer, wanted.
I do believe I could nearly by me a lifetime supply of cold, tasty, fosters lager for $768.162 asd.
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:agree: :agree: :agree: with Glenn
While I'm at it is he fitting a one piece rear main seal or two piece? If he (the builder) doesn't know how to fit the 2 piece seal properly it WILL leak.
He might be using a rope seal as per the original engine.
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He might be using a rope seal as per the original engine.
for some i am totally incompetent with those . . every single one i have ever installed has leaked . . i would really like to know how they did it at the factory.
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for some i am totally incompetent with those . . every single one i have ever installed has leaked . . i would really like to know how they did it at the factory.
Agreed. I am not sure you can purchase a new rope seal. I would pull the locating pin, fill the hole with RTV and install a two piece. I admit my comment was a little flippant - though it could be possible.
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The engine is built now guys ,so it is what it is . He had enough advise about a rebuild ,in the end he left it to the engine builder ,so be it . Yes I can't believe he didn't do the hardened seats for the heads and its not like you can buy leaded fuel anymore but , it must have come down to cost . Give the young guy a break and let him get the engine back into his car and go for a nice drive . Just use the additive on long road trips and not on short in town driving .
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The engine is built now guys ,so it is what it is . He had enough advise about a rebuild ,in the end he left it to the engine builder ,so be it . Yes I can't believe he didn't do the hardened seats for the heads and its not like you can buy leaded fuel anymore but , it must have come down to cost . Give the young guy a break and let him get the engine back into his car and go for a nice drive . Just use the additive on long road trips and not on short in town driving .
I agree Glenn,
This is becoming a joke to the point of bullying.
Back off people.
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:agree: Well said Glenn.
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If you want to run an additive, the one below is the best, period . . There are no comparisons . . It does in fact contain real liquid lead called TEL . . TEL is the exact same chemical that they put in leaded gas to make it leaded . . It also has other octane boosters . . This will allow you to run at least 1 grade lower octane gas than you normally could.
I have no idea if its legal in oz.
http://www.overkillgarage.com/octane-supreme.html (http://www.overkillgarage.com/octane-supreme.html)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDUwMA==/z/YqAAAOSwNSxVcdYN/$_35.JPG?set_id=8800005007)
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I agree Glenn,
This is becoming a joke to the point of bullying.
Back off people.
:agree: time to move on people.
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aside from the incredibly bizarre suggestion to run additive instead of installing har seats the suggestion to run friggen rocket fuel that costs a zillion dollars a liter in a tiny box stock 260 ci engine that only has 160 hp is extremely suspicious to me .
Barnett - in Australia 98 is just your standard premium unleaded as we use the RON (Research Octane Number) - this is the equivalent of 93 on your side of the pond using the AKI rating (Anti-Knock Index). So he isn't suggesting Rocket Fuel, and probably hasn't milled the heads too much.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating).
And yes I think that we should leave him with what he now has!
Cheers
Shane
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Barnett - in Australia 98 is just your standard premium unleaded as we use the RON (Research Octane Number) - this is the equivalent of 93 on your side of the pond using the AKI rating (Anti-Knock Index). So he isn't suggesting Rocket Fuel, and probably hasn't milled the heads too much.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating).
And yes I think that we should leave him with what he now has!
Cheers
Shane
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thanks for the info . . i actually use the chart below . . my the point is that all the windsors run just fine and dandy
with no pinging on us 91 octane which is generally equivalent to your 95 . . in fact, many can be run on 89 which is between your 92 and 95.
the static compression on his engine if it is bored .30 over is 9.1 which means that it will run in 100 degree heat on us 91 octane, therefore the builders recommendation for 98 which is us 93, is at least 1 grade higher than it needs to be and there s no benefit whatsoever from running higher octane gas than is necessary . . it wont hurt to do this but it wont help at all and in some cases, it can will reduce power depending on the brand of gas.
also the other point is that the additive the builder is recommending is going to increase the octane rating by at least 1 which means that even under the worst circumstances, he could easily run your 95 and this is why i think he should have the builder tell him exactly what cc's the heads are . . If the builder did not measure the heads then it;s certainly more likely that he could run lower octane gas to save a few dollars.
Also, if his pistons have valve reliefs, his compression would e around 8.5 with un-milled heads and .030 over bore in which case he could easily run your 92 even without the booster which might save him around $3.00 a tank by itself . . That alone should be more than enough to buy liter of cold, tasty, fosters lager and get change back.
EURO RON US (R+M)/2
. 90................... 85.9
. 92................... 87.8
. 95................... 90.7
. 96................... 91.6
. 98................... 93.5
100................... 95.5
105................. 100.2
110................. 105
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Just let it go Man let it go!!!!!
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I want to say to all people involved that me and my father have appreciated all your advice and feedback and yes it was considered carefully. I had trust in builder and engine is now back with us and looks very well presented and documented. I will post pic and specs next day or two.
I'm honoured to be part of this club and the wealth of knowledge you guys have. Looking forward to the next journey of this build.
We all feel confident when we know what we are talking about and well I'm learning but like anything will get there..
:thumb:
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Every day we and you learn something new ,some know more than others and some don't ,that's life . I am no mechanic and have only learnt about cars from listening to others and giving it a go by my self , as you are doing right now ,so good luck in the future . :thumb:
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Hi Guys for all following here is a pic of engine after manifolds sandblasted and painted ceramic.The 260 is looking great dad and I are doing all the detailing bits of engine so more pictures to follow soon :thumb:
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yup, looks good and you will stay a lot cleaner putting it together . . just remember to put anti seize on the exhaust studs in case you ever have to take them off again . . i dont think you want to have the same prob you did removing them previously, lol.
did he break it i for you?
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Those exhaust manifolds looks great :thumb: mine are all rusted. It's good to see an after photo to compare. Cheers