Do you have to degree a new cam ?

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Author Topic: Do you have to degree a new cam ?  (Read 482896 times)

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #325 on: February 26, 2016, 04:02:30 pm »
Its only a new camshaft , used lifters and the rest of the engine has been run in .

Offline trav68

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #326 on: February 26, 2016, 04:16:14 pm »
Max valve lift was 0.650" was it not for those springs?

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #327 on: February 26, 2016, 04:17:31 pm »
Its only a new camshaft , used lifters and the rest of the engine has been run in .

ROLLER CAM BREAK IN

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/articles/roller-cams-need-break-in-too/

“We are seeing a trend away from flat tappet engines to avoid the oil issues related to flat tappet cams, but just because you have a roller cam does not mean that it does not have to be broken in properly,” commented Reese. “NASCAR-level engine programs like Joe Gibbs Racing are still doing a 30 minute break-in on their roller cam engines because they have learned the hard way what happens when they don’t.”

Brian Reese summarized it the best. “If you get the break-in wrong with a flat tappet cam, it dies right in front of your face. If you get the break-in wrong with a roller cam, it may not die until several thousand miles down the road, but the problem began at break-in.”


Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #328 on: February 26, 2016, 04:18:36 pm »
Max valve lift was 0.650" was it not for those springs?

Yes, so in the case of the Howards cam, take the advertised lift of .629 and subtract .022 for the lash to get the actual lift of .607.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 04:21:44 pm by barnett468 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #329 on: February 26, 2016, 04:24:10 pm »

Ahh rightio.

I'll have to get either from Summit by the looks of things.

Bronze or composite gear ?

Will MSD's own gears be suitable ?


Bronze is for making statues, use a Crane Cams steel gear in the size needed to fit your distributor.

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #330 on: February 26, 2016, 05:11:42 pm »
I'm not saying break   in period for  the cam or engine , but seeing the engine and lifters need no break in period do you still need run in oil for the cam itself . 

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #331 on: February 26, 2016, 05:14:37 pm »
I didn't think i'd have to break it in either but i'll do it anyway as an added precaution and to save a future 4000 page thread  :lmao:

I'm not sure if i read Howards parts list right but they recommend either bronze or composite by the looks of it

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #332 on: February 26, 2016, 05:20:34 pm »
I didn't think i'd have to break it in either but i'll do it anyway as an added precaution and to save a future 4000 page thread  :lmao:
And perhaps with the extra car, it will save you from having to let your wife drive your new $90,000.00 "gas" powered Landcruiser .  :lmao:

At least I bet it hauled ass...for around three seconds . :lmao:

Maybe you can buy a wife proof fuel cap for it .  :lmao:


I'm not sure if i read Howards parts list right but they recommend either bronze or composite by the looks of it
And just how long did your "statue" gear last?


Ouch!


.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 05:42:37 pm by barnett468 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #333 on: February 26, 2016, 05:37:36 pm »
I'm not saying break   in period for  the cam or engine , but seeing the engine and lifters need no break in period do you still need run in oil for the cam itself .

It is still helpful . There are two different types of ZDDP . One forms a more permanent layer under heat and pressure and the other type that is in engine oils is sacraficial and protects the permanent layer.

There are zillions of people that never use break in oil on solid lifter engines and many of them appear to have no problem, however, these same people don't have 100,000 kilometers on their engines either, so in these cases, it is not possible to say what condition their engine/cam/timing gear etc will be in if they ever get that many miles on it.

Also, many of these same people may have a fair amount of wear on their gears and not know it because it has not gotten quite bad enough yet.

What is you cam and gear made out of?


Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #334 on: February 26, 2016, 05:47:30 pm »
And perhaps with the extra car, it will save you from having to let your wife drive your new $90,000.00 "gas" powered Landcruiser .  :lmao:

At least I bet it hauled ass...for around three seconds . :lmao:

Maybe you can buy a wife proof fuel cap for it .  :lmao:

And just how long did your "statue" gear last?


Ouch!


.

Just a regular comedian this bloke  :toetapping: :toetapping:

 :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #335 on: February 26, 2016, 05:59:56 pm »
.
My apologies, I forgot to put a laughing guy after this comment.


And just how long did your "statue" gear last?

And just how long did your "statue" gear last?  :lmao:

There, that's better.  :thumb:


Holy crap....I think I just peed my pants!



Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #336 on: February 26, 2016, 09:08:58 pm »
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We can have some distributor fun now if you want.

below is one of the tests you will eventually be doing . you can see that his new dist gear is fkd because he checked the distributor shaft and it is straight and the od of the dust gear is true, so it seems like not all the teeth in the dist gear might not have been cut evenly but i'm still looking at this prob.

We are going to run a fairly tight end play on your cam because a roller does not need much and the hole you will drill in the right side galley plug will oil the bejesus out of the timing set and the cam thrust plate . . pretty cool huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae3fri2pKYs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=GhmjwPMKtT8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLmG7AUCim0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABoDp2zfz3o
.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 09:20:25 pm by barnett468 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #337 on: February 26, 2016, 11:28:53 pm »
.
We can have some distributor fun now if you want.

below is one of the tests you will eventually be doing . you can see that his new dist gear is fkd because he checked the distributor shaft and it is straight and the od of the dust gear is true, so it seems like not all the teeth in the dist gear might not have been cut evenly but i'm still looking at this prob.

We are going to run a fairly tight end play on your cam because a roller does not need much and the hole you will drill in the right side galley plug will oil the bejesus out of the timing set and the cam thrust plate . . pretty cool huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae3fri2pKYs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=GhmjwPMKtT8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLmG7AUCim0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABoDp2zfz3o
.


Very interesting to watch.

The second video is exactly whats happened to mine. From the knife edges on the dizzy to the wear on the front corners of the cam gear

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #338 on: February 27, 2016, 08:12:49 am »
.
DISTRIBUTOR GEAR MESH

Wear on the front of the gear on the cam is not unusual on aftermarket cams, but the contact really should be in the center of the gear . The correct way to fix that prob is to remove material from the front of the camshaft but not so much that the edge of the lifter runs off the side of the lobe . There should be maybe at least .020" from the edge of the roller to the edge of the cam lobe . It might cost around $40.00 to have a machine shop do this but nobody other than I might do this, however, you will also never see me make a post asking why my distributor and possibly cam gear are junk.

People use aftermarket blocks with aftermarket cams with aftermarket distributors with aftermarket gears and don't set the gears up at all and then wonder why their gears quickly turn into scrap metal.

In your case, the problem was compounded by the idiot's use of glue in the place of actual engine oil . To be fair, the stuff they used actually IS ok to use....in an engine that runs over 5000 rpm for long periods of time and has a DRY SUMP OIL SYSTEM .  :lmao:

Just to put things into perspective, Nascar doesn't even use 60 oil, and they run from 8500 to 10,000 rpm for hours on end.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 08:32:03 am by barnett468 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #339 on: February 27, 2016, 08:30:04 am »
DISTRIBUTOR GEAR TYPE

By the way . I emailed the following to Howards yesterday about using the Crane gear on the cam I suggested and they replied this morning.

Mike:

That gear will work fine.
 
John Steely

Howards Cams
280 W. 35th Ave.
Oshkosh, WI   54902
920-233-5228
920-233-0938 Fax
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 08:32:26 am by barnett468 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #340 on: February 27, 2016, 09:01:07 am »

In your case, the problem was compounded by the idiot's use of glue in the place of actual engine oil . To be fair, the stuff they used actually IS ok to use....in an engine that runs over 5000 rpm for long periods of time and has a DRY SUMP OIL SYSTEM .  :lmao:



I asked them about the oil a couple of times. And all i got was make sure the engine is up to temp, (which i do anyway) before driving. But in the same sentence he said he uses the same oil but with a pre heater before startup.

Not exactly handy for me at home  :thud:

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #341 on: February 27, 2016, 09:03:23 am »
DISTRIBUTOR GEAR TYPE

By the way . I emailed the following to Howards yesterday about using the Crane gear on the cam I suggested and they replied this morning.

Mike:

That gear will work fine.
 
John Steely

Howards Cams
280 W. 35th Ave.
Oshkosh, WI   54902
920-233-5228
920-233-0938 Fax

So i assume by that you mean a steel gear ?

How do they compare to MSD ?

Reason i ask is i was going to just send the distributor to MSD for them to replace it. It's a few days turn around

Measured the end play on my distributor and it's pretty much dead on MSD min spec.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 09:15:36 am by Fitzy1980 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #342 on: February 27, 2016, 09:03:50 am »
DISTRIBUTOR GEAR SETUP STEP 1

Use a paper towel and some paint thinner to thoroughly clean the area where the distributor gear runs on the block and clean the front cam bearing and the holes the cam plate bolts screw in to because they had sealer inside them.

Carefully inspect the distributor gear thrust surface/pad that is machined into the block . It should be as flat as glass and flawlessly smooth . Tell us if it is not then post a photo.

Clean the distributor shaft and gear.

Put engine oil on the housing where it rides in the block.

Install distributor and distributor hold down clamp and moderately tighten the clamp bolt.

From the front of the engine, grab the shaft by the gear and lift it up and measure the clearance between the bottom of the gear and the block . It should be around .010".

Remove that feeler gauge then insert a .001" or .002" feeler gauge between the gear and the block.

Let go of the shaft then place light downward pressure on the top of the shaft then try to remove the feeler gauge . If there is no resistance it means there is clearance and we have to fix it.

If there is clearance, put light downward pressure on the top of the shaft and measure exactly how much there is by inserting different thicknesses of gauges until the just barely fit.

 




Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #343 on: February 27, 2016, 09:07:56 am »
So i assume by that you mean a steel gear ?

How do they compare to MSD ?

Reason i ask is i was going to just send the distributor to MSD for them to replace it. It's a few days turn around

The MSD steel gear is not made by Crane . Use the Crane gear or take your chances and save your money in case you have to do this again.

You can NOT use a normal steel gear, it must be melonized . Both the MSD and Crane gear are but they are not made by the same company . The distributor gear photos I posted earlier are the Crane gear and it is pretty easy to see that it is extremely smooth with no sharp edges..

You can not do anything until we have the results of the above test.

The gear mesh must be perfect or you may be in the same boat again VERY soon . If you do not do it exactly as I suggest, it will void your warranty .  :lmao:


........................................................... This gear is bitchen!

..........

..


............................................................ This is the MSD gear

.......................................


This is an MSD gear that was made in 2006



« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 09:40:48 am by barnett468 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #344 on: February 27, 2016, 09:24:05 am »
Too me (Village Idiot)  :lmao: :lmao:

The MSD looks smoother, but i guess in comparison the edges are a lot sharper. Then again the Crane gear is a much larger, detailed photo.

Before i forget, i know i need to drill the holes for the oil mod.

Will i need to still file the very small grove in the distributor shaft above the gear for additional oiling that it seems everyone recommends. I think MSD even suggest it.


« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 09:29:50 am by Fitzy1980 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #345 on: February 27, 2016, 09:45:15 am »
Too me (Village Idiot)  :lmao: :lmao:

The MSD looks smoother, but i guess in comparison the edges are a lot sharper. Then again the Crane gear is a much larger, detailed photo.

Will i need to still file the very small grove in the distributor shaft above the gear for additional oiling that it seems everyone recommends. I think MSD even suggest it.

The MSD has sharper edges, plus you can see machining marks on the end of the teeth . There is ZERO machining marks on the teeth on the Crane gear, but again, use whatever you want, it's not my engine.

If you needed to file a groove in the distributor shaft I would have told you so . Besides, that only works on Chevy's, so I again suggest that you stop reading other sites....unless you plan to buy a Chevy because your new $90,000.00 Landcruiser doesn't seem to run so well right now . :lmao:



Before i forget, i know i need to drill the holes for the oil mod.

And you need to measure cam end play. 





« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 09:52:50 am by barnett468 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #346 on: February 27, 2016, 09:50:19 am »
The MSD has sharper edges, plus you can see machining marks on the end of the teeth . There is ZERO machining marks on the teeth on the Crane gear, but again, use whatever you want, it's not my engine.

If you needed to file a groove in the distributor shaft I would have told you so . Besides that only works on Chevy's, so again, STOP READING OTHER SITES .  :lmao:

I see the difference now with that larger photo. I only asked because if thats the case i need to install a crane gear on and MSD. The install looks like it has a very small margin for error and if i get it wrong im back to square one in a few hundred K's.

And i doubt MSD will install another manufacturers gear on there products and vice versa.


 :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

I'm about a $1000 out of pocket for that little experiment.

Could have been worse. A new engine for one of them is around $30k  :thud:
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 09:52:32 am by Fitzy1980 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #347 on: February 27, 2016, 09:59:11 am »
I see the difference now with that larger photo. I only asked because if thats the case i need to install a crane gear on and MSD. The install looks like it has a very small margin for error and if i get it wrong im back to square one in a few hundred K's.

And i doubt MSD will install another manufacturers gear on there products and vice versa.


 :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

I'm about a $1000 out of pocket for that little experiment.

Could have been worse. A new engine for one of them is around $30k  :thud:

Just call MSD and ask them . Assuming things will not help, besides, most local shops "should" be able to install it.

For the second time  :toetapping: you shouldn't have anyone install anything until we get some measurements . If the gear on the MSD is in the wrong location for your particular setup, why would you want to have a new one reinstalled in the same incorrect location?

Still need photos of the cam plate too!
.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 10:03:59 am by barnett468 »

Offline shaunp

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #348 on: February 27, 2016, 10:47:52 am »
If you are going to run the comp cam why would you not use their gear,  you may have some recourse if it fails, likely not, I suppose they will just say it was installed at the wrong height, but worth considering.

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #349 on: February 27, 2016, 11:04:52 am »
If you are going to run the comp cam why would you not use their gear,  you may have some recourse if it fails, likely not, I suppose they will just say it was installed at the wrong height, but worth considering.

Comp had a problem with the gears on their cams several years ago which they have since greatly improved on . Comp lifters suck and I no longer use them or sell them . Not everything every company makes is good . Since the gear pitch is an industry standard, imo it is far more logical to use the best gear available and avoid gear damage then it is to use the same gear from the company one gets the cam from in hopes that they will warranty it if it goes bad . Using two equally marginal parts is not as good as using one marginal one and one good one.

If the cam gear has some rough edges, it can be fixed, however, you can not do anything to fix a melonized distributor gear because it will remove the melonizing which will increase the chance that both gears will get damaged.

Crane was the first aftermarket company to come out with a melonized gear, and the quality of their products has always been very good even though Comp Cams now owns them...and Lunati....and... This gear is being run by many people on many different brands and types of cams including some 9 second drag cars and professional drag racing boats.

 

« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 11:25:20 am by barnett468 »