Do you have to degree a new cam ?

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Author Topic: Do you have to degree a new cam ?  (Read 356845 times)

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2016, 11:07:48 pm »
CAM REMOVAL OPTION A

Put the car in gear with the parking brake on.

Place something thick on both FRONT fenders to protect them . If you use cloth, put some newspaper on top to keep oil from soaking through . You can also by plain or magnetic fender covers . Supercheap may have them.

Remove the battery and place it on wood, not on the concrete . This will not only give you more elbow room, it will allow you to use the battery tray to put stuff on . Put newspaper on the tray.

Drain the oil then drag a magnet thru it . If you get much metal, it is not a good sign.

Remove the radiator cap then drain the rad fluid.

Remove the radiator.

Remove the radiator fan if it is mechanical.

Remove the fan belts.

Remove the alternator and brackets.

Move the power steering pump and bracket out of the way if you have one.

Remove the valve covers.

Remove the spark plugs.

Remove the water pump.

Remove the lower crank pulley.

Count the number of mounting holes in your pulley then rent a damper pulley with the same number of holes.

Put the car in neutral.

Use a ratchet to turn the damper clockwise as you face the engine until you see the intake valve on the head to the left of you go down then all the way back up . Continue to turn the damper around 1/3 rd of a turn more until the TDC [zero] line lines up with the pointer on the timing cover.

Put the car in gear.

Use a long breaker bar to turn the damper bolt counter clockwise as you face the engine until it is loose, then remove it and the flat washer.

Use the puller and wrench to remove the damper.

Remove the timing pointer.

Remove the timing cover . It might need to be pried on lightly if they used sealer.

Remove the carb linkage and fuel line.

Remove the carb.

Remove the intake manifold.

Remove the rocker nuts one at a time . If they have an allen screw in the center, turn it counter clockwise 1 1/2 turn, then reinstall the nut with 1 turn only.

Move the rocker arms to the side so the push rods are exposed.

Remove all the push rods and put them in a plastic bag.

Remove all the lifters.

Remove the bolt on the cam gear.

Hold the cam gear and pry on it so it only moves 6 mm [1/4"] forward.

Pry the bottom gear so it only moves 10 mm forward.

Pry on the cam gear until it comes off.

Get around a 20 cm [8"] long bolt the same size as the cam bolt.

Screw the bolt into the end of the cam gear around 20 mm.

Pull the cam forward slowly while trying to keep the rear of the cam centered by using leverage on the bolt.

The cam will move around 30 mm at which point the journals will no longer be in the cam bearings . At this point, the cam will be able to flop around . Continue to remove it slowly . When it stops moving, try to center it with the bolt bolt as you gently pull on it until it moves again . The cam may stop several times as you pull on it . This is common.

Inspect the front of the block for metal where the distributor gear was located and clean the area.


Had a spare few mins i see  :cheers:

Thanks mate, much appreciated.


Stay tuned for lots of laughs, festivities kick off Saturday.  :evilone:

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2016, 04:53:37 am »
Had a spare few mins i see  :cheers:

Thanks mate, much appreciated.
Stay tuned for lots of laughs, festivities kick off Saturday.  :evilone:

xlnt cant wait . this should be amusi...uh, I mean informative  . You can possibly rent the damper puller and other tools you need.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 11:58:13 am by barnett468 »

Offline trav68

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2016, 10:56:31 am »
Balancer removal - you can just match drill a scrap bit of plate (~ 6mm) to suit your 3/4 hole balancer, put a spacer between the balancer bolt head and hte plate, then screw in the 3/4 bolts like jacking bolts.

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2016, 01:20:31 pm »
xlnt cant wait . this should be amusi...uh, I mean informative  . You can possibly rent the damper puller and other tools you need.


I'll just buy the gear.

Probably need it all again anyway when the motor grenades itself on startup.  :lmao: :lmao:

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2016, 01:56:37 pm »

I'll just buy the gear.

Probably need it all again anyway when the motor grenades itself on startup.  :lmao: :lmao:

Do you mean you really expect it to start after you're done?  :lmao:


Offline shaunp

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2016, 06:46:51 pm »
I use a rattle gun to undo the crank bolt, on modern cars which have no key way, they generally done up to about 350ftlb the normal practice is to put a long breaker bar over the the chassis and hit the start a couple of time knock them straight off. Of cause you disable the ignition. I do this often particular on diesel's

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2016, 11:15:06 pm »
Do you mean you really expect it to start after you're done?  :lmao:

I'm slightly optimistic  :thumb:  :lol:

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2016, 09:47:27 am »
Barn,

In addition to your instruction list a few posts up, i'm guessing its worth removing the sump completely and washing it out and checking the oil pump screen for any potential metal ??


Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2016, 09:56:22 am »
Barn,

In addition to your instruction list a few posts up, i'm guessing its worth removing the sump completely and washing it out and checking the oil pump screen for any potential metal ??

Well. that is a totally f'd job to do, especially without a lift, but it would be ideal and the safest thing.

My best guess on what i have seen is that you would have a couple of pieces of metal in the pan but that the screen on the pump "should" prevent them from entering the pump.


Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2016, 05:56:45 pm »
Good news, didn't find any metal in the oil.   :pepper:

" Use a ratchet to turn the damper clockwise as you face the engine until you see the intake valve on the head to the left of you go down then all the way back up . Continue to turn the damper around 1/3 rd of a turn more until the TDC [zero] line lines up with the pointer on the timing cover. "


The damper is already marked at TDC with a sharpie, not sure if it's at zero i can't read the numbers well enough. Do i run with the engine builders markings or ignore them and find 0.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 06:31:30 pm by Fitzy1980 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2016, 06:29:14 pm »
.
wow, been gone so long i thought we lost ya!

find zero . the damper is engraved with lines up to at least 30, or at least it better be for $15,000 friggen dollars .  :lmao:
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 06:31:15 pm by barnett468 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2016, 06:32:25 pm »
.
Tuna Fish.  :smash:


Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2016, 06:36:41 pm »
.
wow, been gone so long i thought we lost ya!

find zero . the damper is engraved with lines up to at least 30, or at least it better be for $15,000 friggen dollars .  :lmao:


 :lmao: :lmao:

Nah mate, father in law has been crook for a couple of months and has been in hospital past few weeks and after a heap of scans and tests turns out to be stage 4 lung cancer and he is basically riddled with it. So been a bit busy.

Having a crack at the car today to take the mind of things.  :thumb:


Other question will i need/or should i get new bolts for the manifold ? There ARP, just wasn't sure if they stretch like head bolts etc..

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2016, 07:01:37 pm »
.
yeah, that sucks.

the arp bolts are fine to reuse.

we will have to make a step by step reassembly when you are ready but you need to figure out a cam so your car isnt sitting disassembled for weeks.

Offline trav68

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2016, 09:05:10 pm »
Why are you so pre-occupied finding exact TDC during tear down?

During degreeing you will need to find exact TDC plus you will need to verify that the balancer markings line up with the timing pointer correctly ( not just with a sharpie mark!).  Hopefully, the original engine builder did this but if not you may need a timing pointer with adjustment due to the different balancer configurations and timing pointer locations on windsors. You need to be able to set timing (ignition) accurately off the balancer markings come start up.

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2016, 10:58:35 pm »
Why are you so pre-occupied finding exact TDC during tear down?

During degreeing you will need to find exact TDC plus you will need to verify that the balancer markings line up with the timing pointer correctly ( not just with a sharpie mark!).  Hopefully, the original engine builder did this but if not you may need a timing pointer with adjustment due to the different balancer configurations and timing pointer locations on windsors. You need to be able to set timing (ignition) accurately off the balancer markings come start up.


I was just following Barn's advice.


So in a nutshell am i setting the balancer at 0, exact TDC or using the engine builders mark of TDC ?


Reason i asked is i figured that if i line the pointer up with the engine builders TDC mark than it will go back on the same as when it was built. As im more than likely going to use the same cam again
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 11:25:54 pm by Fitzy1980 »

Offline trav68

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2016, 11:28:54 pm »
I am not sure of his reasoning but for tear down it does not really matter but will assist in initial setup of your degree wheel.

Ultimately, they should all be one and the same (if your engine builder bothered to setup timing pointer accurately) but in the process of degreeing the cam you will locate TDC accurately, finish the degreeing process and ensure you rotate the engine to TDC at the very end, then with balancer on crank ensure the timing pointer points to 0 deg (i.e don't rotate your crank between finishing the degreeing and verifying balancer/pointer relationship).

Lunati website has a pretty decent step by step cam degree procedure from memory have a look.

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2016, 09:10:28 am »
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The damper is already marked at TDC with a sharpie, not sure if it's at zero i can't read the numbers well enough. Do i run with the engine builders markings or ignore them and find 0.
find zero . the damper is engraved with lines up to at least 30, or at least it better be for $15,000 friggen dollars .  :lmao:
So in a nutshell am i setting the balancer at 0, exact TDC or using the engine builders mark of TDC ?

Why are you asking this question again after I already answered it?  :toetapping:

If you put it on ZERO now, you will NOT have to try and find ZERO when you install the cam.  :thumb:

If you can NOT find ZERO with the damper installed, there is a problem that needs to be addressed sooner or later.

 :agree:

My instructions were written specifically to make this job as easy as possible for someone like you to whom has never done anything like this.  :santa:

If you vary from them in any single way, you may very well make things far more difficult.  :kickass:

The builders mark means absolutely nothing because you are installing a different cam.  :smash:

If the damper on your $15,000.00 engine does NOT have any timing marks on it at all, it has to be the biggest pos on the planet, because even the Chinese dampers have timing marks on them .  :lmao:
.
 

« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 09:37:02 am by barnett468 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2016, 09:40:35 am »
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« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 09:42:19 am by barnett468 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2016, 09:41:58 am »
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Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2016, 09:44:17 am »


If you put it on ZERO now, you will NOT have to try and find ZERO when you install the cam.  :thumb:



The builders mark means absolutely nothing because you are installing a different cam.  :smash:



This is what i wanted to know..

 :cheers:

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2016, 09:47:03 am »
This is what i wanted to know..

 :cheers:

ok

................

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2016, 10:22:09 am »
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post the info on the rear end of the cam or post a photo of it.

post a photo of your dyno sheet.

the cam below is not really huge.


is yours a non roller solid lifter cam?

how much do you want to spend on a cam and lifters? . roller cams are nice but pricey.

do you want to stick with a solid lifter cam?

what engine, heads, rear gears and trans do you have?

what did you like about that cam?

what did you not like about it?

do you want better idle and more bottom end and less top end?


"Found a couple of dyno sheets and it has the cam listed as being

Cam 230/230 Tappets 20 int 20 exh

Not sure if thats accurate though or just something generic they enter.

The only cam that looks to match that is this, but i guess mine could be a custom grind as you said or just not listed anymore.

Part Number:   none
Grind Number:   BOSS 290R
Intake Duration (gross):   290
Exhaust Duration (gross):   290
Intake Duration (.050”):   230
Exhaust Duration (.050”):   230
Intake Valve Lift*:   .517"
Exhaust Valve Lift*:   .517"
Lobe Separation:   114
Intake Valve Lash:   .024"
Exhaust Valve Lash:    .024"
RPM Range:
2500-6500
*Based on 1.73 Rocker Arm Ratio"   
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 10:37:00 am by barnett468 »

Offline Fitzy1980

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2016, 10:44:13 am »
.
post the info on the rear end of the cam or post a photo of it.

post a photo of your dyno sheet.


what engine, heads, rear gears and trans do you have?

what did you like about that cam?

what did you not like?

do you want better idle and more bottom end and less bottom end?


"Found a couple of dyno sheets and it has the cam listed as being

Cam 230/230 Tappets 20 int 20 exh

Not sure if thats accurate though or just something generic they enter.

The only cam that looks to match that is this, but i guess mine could be a custom grind as you said or just not listed anymore.

Part Number:   none
Grind Number:   BOSS 290R
Intake Duration (gross):   290
Exhaust Duration (gross):   290
Intake Duration (.050”):   230
Exhaust Duration (.050”):   230
Intake Valve Lift*:   .517"
Exhaust Valve Lift*:   .517"
Lobe Separation:   114
Intake Valve Lash:   .024"
Exhaust Valve Lash:    .024"
RPM Range:
2500-6500
*Based on 1.73 Rocker Arm Ratio"


Engine builders are still trying to find the build info (been nearly 3 weeks now) so chances of that happening are f#$@K all i'd say at this point.

Emailed Schneider, apparently there is a number stamped on the front of the cam which will allow them to give me the cam details.


363
Dart heads
Close ratio top loader
Solid roller

I was hoping to just stick with the same cam if i can to avoid having to change as little as possible.

No idea on diff gearing, car was setup with more of a track focus if that helps at all.


I didn't really have an issue with how it ran with that cam, before it shat the bed of course. It had a nice choppy idle, the bottom end felt really strong and it pulled consistently up the rev range.

When it's running as it should be, it's a weapon.

Idle at cold sometimes was a pain in the ass but that might have had more to do with the other issues i was having, took quite a few cranks to wind over sometimes.

I'll put up the dyno sheet i have soon

« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 10:46:54 am by Fitzy1980 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Do you have to degree a new cam ?
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2016, 10:48:40 am »
so in other words, you would be perfectly happy with the same performance you had before it blew up and you dont want a hydraulic or roller cam?

you can just order that same cam if that's what you want.

Dart does not list any heads for a cleveland.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 10:53:32 am by barnett468 »