Mustang Owners Club Australia Forum
Technical & General Discussion Area => Restomods => Topic started by: AussiePhil on August 23, 2021, 07:19:00 pm
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Hey all,
I’m going to do the Shelby drop soon!
I got the dimensions for the template of the internet.
I made the template this afternoon.
You can’t believe how hard it is to get the holes exact, even though I’m a fitter and turner and have a mill plate and used centre drills! Two holes were 1/16” short of the 1”
The problem I had was centre popping all four holes, could have scribed the lines better!
I searched Shelby drop and found an old old post about wheel alignment settings.
Thanks to Shaunp I found.
1/8" toe in.
-0.5 deg camber.
min of +3deg caster, if it has PS give it as much caster as you get up to +5. More caster the more stable it is in a straight line.
Thanks for the details, is this still current thinking.
Cheers Phil.
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Hey, this is my template!
It was a rusty old bent piece i had!
Cheers Phil
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https://forum.mustang.org.au/index.php?topic=10468.0
Some light reading.
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Hey, thanks Brett!
I did a bit of light reading, I did some reading some time ago and this article reminded me about the ball joint binding.
I’ll do something about that, may fit the wedge kit anyhow.
I’m always working on my car, but under Covid lockdown I’ve been really getting stuck into it.
Making and fitting engine coil covers, Making and fitting subframe connectors, lifting the mufflers into the body cut away better, fitted a tailshaft loop, modifying 12” AVO coil over dampers to 14” and adapting to fit larger diameter coil springs and soon to fit larger supercharger pulley to slow up the supercharger, it’s spinning to fast, to much torque (705Nm) for my Borg Warner WC T5 gearbox (not that it reduce it dramatically) and raising the engine rpm to 6000 from 5300, will also extend supercharger life.
Cheers Phil.
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Hi Phil.
I installed Moog balljoints upper ball joints on my 65 when I redid the front. My understanding is that they are engineered to compensate for the binding that the Shelby drop may cause. So might be worth looking at instead of using the wedge kit.
Cheers
Shane
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Hi Phil.
I installed Moog balljoints upper ball joints on my 65 when I redid the front. My understanding is that they are engineered to compensate for the binding that the Shelby drop may cause. So might be worth looking at instead of using the wedge kit.
Cheers
Shane
Hey, thanks Shane,
I’m in the middle of the first side, going ok at the moment, I’ll have a look if the ball joints are branded while I’m at it.
A lot of work has been done by the first Australian owner, Lovell springs, Koni shocks and new perches, I’d imagine new ball joints as well!
I thought I read somewhere that 67 on didn’t have this problem, but it may have been something else!
I borrowed my sons spring compressors but they are a bit long and bulky, anyone buying some need to get short slim ones.
I’ll refit the bump stop plate and do the movement test without the spring later and I’ll probably make a set of wedges anyhow! I have a milling machine! I can’t afford to drop much height either, I’ll make a 1/4” shim for on top of the spring insulator or buy a fatter spring insulator.
Cheers Phil.
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Hi Phil,
I came across these values a few years ago for the 67 Shelby Drop alignment set up.
1. No more than .25 degrees between drivers and passengers side.
2. +2.0 to + 3.5 degrees Caster
3. -.5 to 0 degrees Camber [ No negative camber ] There is no problem having slight variation from drivers & passengers side to account for road surface camber.
When I was doing my Shelby drop, I also fabricated and installed Shock tower gussets, roller spring perches, Passenger side torque box along with the chassis rail connectors.
As a side note, following the blasting of my engine bay, it was interesting to find 4 or 5 hairline [ 1 fairly severe] cracks of both shock towers due to twisting motion over the years.
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Hey Michael,
How are you doing, crazy here in Bathurst!
Thanks for the info, I have stripped back the engine bay a few years ago and didn’t find anything unusual.
The car is in pretty good condition.
Cheers Phil.
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Hi Phil,
All good thanks, but "crazy" with a capital "C" here in Vietnam.....I have been trying to get back to Aus for several months now..... :flag:
Yep, I am sure your lovely 68 is in pristine condition mate.....I just mentioned the shock tower issues for the benefit of forum readers.....probably just one of a thousand issues that can be hidden behind paint....
Also read on another thread you were installing chassis rail connectors......looking forward to your updates and piccies.....seems like you are using your shed time productively mate... :thumb:
Cheers
Michael
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Hey all,
I removed my sway bar this morning and tested the suspension movement for binding and it binds a lot before the bump stops! But it’s not the ball joints only, it’s the control arms as well. Binding up against the frame, in the original position the control arms hit the bump stop, but only just, the control arm is very close the the frame as well, and there appears to be witness marks that under some bumps the control arms have hit the frame.
There’s no part numbers stamped on the control arm but there is distinct brand marks on them.
I’m off now to remove the control arms to inspect further and get some good photos.
It won’t be a problem, I’ll just relieve the area on the control arms binding.
Cheers Phil.
Update;
That’s one problem solved, I cut 1/4” off the top lip and a bit of the corner, now the upper control arm hits the bump stop.
Cheers Phil.
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Hey all,
This is my upper control arm that was causing my binding problem, the only identifying markings are the three marks at the top.
Does anyone know this brand.
Anyhow I'll refit the ball joints tomorrow and check if they bind, I assume they will!
If so I'll make up some wedges.
Cheers Phil.
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Hey all,
Did a bit more time reading on American forums about the Shelby Arning drop, in Australia we talk mainly about the 1" drop, but the Americans really get stuck into it 1 5/8" even a 2" drop, this would necessitate a ball joint wedge for sure to stop binding and realigning the ball joint to sit in the middle of its socket.
Ridetech make a 6° ball joint wedge kit, not sure what amount of drop these would suit.
I spent some time today making and fitting ball joint wedges that turned out to be 5° for that reason and it will also make up some of the height lost doing the drop.
As it is I'm very happy with th results, I did a travel test and hits the bump beautifully!
Cheers Phil.
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Hi Phil,
I came across these values a few years ago for the 67 Shelby Drop alignment set up.
1. No more than .25 degrees between drivers and passengers side.
2. +2.0 to + 3.5 degrees Caster
3. -.5 to 0 degrees Camber [ No negative camber ] There is no problem having slight variation from drivers & passengers side to account for road surface camber.
When I was doing my Shelby drop, I also fabricated and installed Shock tower gussets, roller spring perches, Passenger side torque box along with the chassis rail connectors.
As a side note, following the blasting of my engine bay, it was interesting to find 4 or 5 hairline [ 1 fairly severe] cracks of both shock towers due to twisting motion over the years.
Hey Michael,
I’ve completed the drop and really happy with it. I’ve stripped and repainting under the wheel arches and waiting for a welder to weld the subframe connectors in so I may as well do the gussets, I wasn’t fussed about doing them but under the current lockdown conditions the car won’t be moving for a while.
Cheers Phil.
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Hey all,
I found this YouTube video showing the effect of the Shelby / Arning drop!
It’s gives a very good visual explanation!
I have 8” x 18” wheels and 235 tyres and has in the past rubbed the guards under descent bumps.
Hopefully the drop I’ve just completed will help.
https://youtu.be/zSwjMLA7EDo
Cheers Phil
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Hey all,
I’ve completed my Shelby / Arning 1” drop and shock tower gussets, all went well.
I haven’t been able to drop the car to the ground yet, I’ve got it jacked up high waiting for a better welder than me to mig weld in the subframe connectors.
But I’ve noticed it’s got a lot of toe in! Is this what you found when you did yours!
And going back over the photos I’ve taken during the work I’ve noticed the control arms shafts don’t seem to be centred in the control arms, are they supposed centred or slightly offset for caster (you’d think not)!
I’ll investigate, measure further tomorrow!
Cheers Phil.
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Hi Phil
The apparent toe in will settle once you get it back on the ground.....gravity may be making it seem severe..
Drop it back on ground, drive it around the block doing full lock to lock steering movements then get the alignment done.
Keep a close eye on steerage and directive feeling over the first month..
Cheers mate
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Should have also mentioned that rim & tyre sizes and subsequent altered geometry will add to your sea trials/ commissioning/ trials....
Bugger me...i sound like a typical Marine Engineer now
Time for another rum .....aye
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Hey Michael,
I’ll do that when I get a chance, cheers.
I’m going to check the control arm shafts are centred tomorrow, one side seems to out of centre backwards, the other side forward. Just going by photos, I may be imagining it!
So to get the right caster each side with the caster rods one wheel would be front of the other, that can’t be good?
But I may be imagining it!
No chance of getting a wheel alignment, we’re going to have our lock down extended in the next few days, 30 covid cases in Bathurst at the moment. Tyre companies doing punctures only!
I’ll be lucky if my welder can make it this week. I could weld it myself but mig would be better. I bought a mig welder this week, but from W.A. so long haul across Aus! I haven’t mig welded for long time!
Any sign of you coming home soon! I’d love to see you able to do something with your car!
UPDATE; Panicked about nothing! Checked centre of the control arms this morning with calipers, as close to centre as you could get them!
Ha Ha Ha, never rely on photos, must have just been at the angle of the photo that they looked out!
Cheers Phil.
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Ahoy Matey!
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Good news Phil..
Glad it worked out with no dramas....always a good feeling seeing projects work out..
Between the Vietnamese lockdown regime and the Australian lockout rules getting home is not possible for a while...but my stang is safely stowed in Brizzy ready for the final 150 hours....so close...yet so far..
Stay safe Phil..
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Hey all,
Job finished and car back on the ground, unfortunately I didn’t measure the height before I started, the Shelby drop was a spur of the moment thing while I was doing subframe connectors and exhaust work.
I reckon it’s 20mm lower, my exhaust used to be legal but now it’s only 80mm. It looks great down low but it wouldn’t travel to well.
I’ll probably add a longer spring insulator to lift it back up a bit.
Cheers Phil.
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Hi Phil I'd be interested to see some pics if you have time.
Cheers,
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Ball joint wedges to correct ball and socket angle.
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Hi Phil I'd be interested to see some pics if you have time.
Cheers,
Anyone interested in more photos Email me at phildrury59@gmail.com
I have trouble making the photos small enough for the forum to take them!
Cheers Phil.
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Those wedges look great Phil, any photos of your installed subframe connectors?
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Hey Ray,
I got the design off the net, but because I have four links on the back I needed to alter them.
I needed to lengthen them to bolt into what was the spring eye linkage.
The angles are absolutely prefect, it follows the floor brilliantly.
Start at the front and work backwards!
I’ll attach photos as poor as they are, no finished photo, but the plans are brilliant.
Cheers Phil.
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Subframe connectors plan. I didn't use the same tabs on the ends, I made one larger plate using existing suspension bolts.
Thanks to Dazecars for the design! I used 50mm x 5 mm SHS from the scrap dealer in town, it was a steal at $10.00. It was some type of jig used for machinery packaging.
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Part manufacture of subframe connectors.
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How to attach to the front subframe, weld ends and drill and plug weld to subframe.
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Subframe welded to chassis rail. Primed with miracle paint!
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Hi All,
Because the drop lowers road height I’m making aluminium coil spring spacers to set the road height correct!
The insertion rubber that was glued to the perch was removed, it’s a waste of time, and road height would sagged over time!
Cheers Phil.
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hey mate. why wouldn’t you just do it properly and put longer springs in to correct the length? $180 for some
kings and it’s done and safe instead of using spacers.
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Hey griff,
I don’t need the extra travel you’d get from longer springs!
The car and bike are sore points at the moment. Total cost of Subframe connectors $10 for steel from scrap dealer plus $90 for welder to mig weld one end, tail shaft loop $2 for mower handle at recycling centre, $30 steel for shock tower gussets, bugger all for Shelby drop and negative camber wedges, $20 for spring adapters. Plus $100 for paints and rods.
Apart from that I find it very therapeutic tinkering in my workshop and on my car!
Cheers Phil.
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phil i get it that you love to tinker but that top mount will eventually shit itself under constant stress and you’ll change lanes very nicely into the path of someone else’s pride and joy. that’s what my attention was drawn to mate.
i’m only trying to help buddy where i see something that an engineer would put a big X against and god forbid an assessor puts an X on it if something did happen and thatll cost you big.
a set of kings KFFL59 and you’re done. plenty of us here would advise same. we’ve all seen the photos of “i did it myself” and their aftermath.
do it properly old son.
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Hey griff,
Thanks for your advise but I’m sure it’ll be ok.
Cheers Phil.
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I think you may find that suspension spacers live in the same world as wheel spacers in OZ. Illegal and therefore void your insurance if the worst ever happens.
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Hi Phil,
I used the "Daze" pattern also mate.....[ I had a bit of time and $$$, so I bought new Gal steel with 4mm wall thickness}
As opposed to the plug weld and connection weld procedure, I installed some full length flat steel plate to give the connection point some rigidity. The plug weld from thin material to thicker walled box section connection didn't adequate so i drilled through the rail, packers and connector and installed Hi tensile bolts with large area washers.....
Hope the photo's come through ok.
Anyway mate, our results will have the desired purpose and effect.
<img src="https://i.ibb.co/RHg8Z7B/mbmarch20161.jpg" alt="mbmarch20161" border="0">
<img src="https://i.ibb.co/QYTkLSw/mbmarch20162.jpg" alt="mbmarch20162" border="0">
<img src="https://i.ibb.co/DWnCzFG/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg" alt="OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA" border="0">
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In one picture it appears the connectors have not be end capped, but this is not the case...Both rails were end capped front and rear, so as to create a sealed box section......
Material used 50mm x 50mm x 4mm Galvanized steel tube....
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Hey Michael,
Yes, your job turned out very neat!
I got a great deal at the scrap yard, they were some kind of jig for machinery transport, They had a heap, I should have bought the lot.
It’s new 50 x 50 x 5mm and 75mm angle, painted with an anti-rust, more than enough to do the job for $10.
I built up the ends to fit neatly into the channel, width and height, I left that welding to a professional, he was happy using the plug welds and turned up the amps for good penetration. He’s a welder I’ve used before, he’s done heaps of jobs for me but has never seen the car, he couldn’t believe what I’ve done to the car.
I’ve since bought a mig welder but my mig is a bit messy, although I ran a beautiful mig weld the other day, the mma runs beautiful welds, very consistent arc, my old welder I bought when I was 18, not yesterday!
I said to my wife last night I’ve finished on the car, she said I bet your not.
This morning I dropped it to the ground and took it for a run, it’s to high in the air, she was right.
I had to lift it 20mm so I made 20mm spring adapters, but forgot about the Upper control arm overhang! Hahaha.
It ended up I lifted it 2 1/4” hahaha. What a dope!
I’ve machined them down to 13mm to start with, will drop on the ground tomorrow and adjust them until the height and ride is perfect.
Hope you’re doing well.
Cheers Phil.
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Haha....you are a classic Phil..total respect too you for planning and getting on with your upgrades especially nutting out problems....love the look and stance of your beast and i bet once you get it fine tuned with your latest upgrades it will handle very nicely..
i weld like a carpenter so i dont...
Always great to see classic car owners posting their own project work and the Daze sight shares some great info.
PS. My wife doesnt ask me about my car and i dont tell....or volunteer info.....secret mens business...
All ok here
Regards
Mike
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Hey Mike,
I speak to my wife about my car and her favourite saying is “ are my eyes glazing over “
Yes, Dazecars are great! Share with you, but don’t push there products, but if you want them here they are.
The contour of the subframe connectors are perfect! I needed to extend mine at the back to tie them into my four links.
Bathurst this year if it goes ahead will be in late November into December, not sure if you’ll get up the mountain, I’ve been going for a long time, I either get wet or burnt to a crisp, Weather will hot as hell! No shade, every year I say I’m not going again, but I do, isn’t that a sign of madness!
Cheers Phil.
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Gents,
slightly off subject to the Shelby drop, but related to front end performance enhancements, I fabricated these roller spring perches.
Photo of the originals attached which are basically a shaft with a vulcanized solid rubber bushing.
Picture of my fabricated roller version following the design from DazeCars...
Not really a shed job unless you have a lathe, as the tube needs to be machined to take the bearing outer race, plus the circlip retaining rebate....Bearings are standard over the counter, which fit the shaft with a small amount of pressing...
<img src="https://i.ibb.co/QQByySX/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg" alt="OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA" border="0">
<img src="https://i.ibb.co/D8m26xc/spring-perch.jpg" alt="spring-perch" border="0">
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Gents,
slightly off subject to the Shelby drop, but related to front end performance enhancements, I fabricated these roller spring perches.
Photo of the originals attached which are basically a shaft with a vulcanized solid rubber bushing.
Picture of my fabricated roller version following the design from DazeCars...
Not really a shed job unless you have a lathe, as the tube needs to be machined to take the bearing outer race, plus the circlip retaining rebate....Bearings are standard over the counter, which fit the shaft with a small amount of pressing...
Very nice work Mike,
I bet you got great satisfaction making your own perches and they look rock solid!
Cheers Phil.
<img src="https://i.ibb.co/QQByySX/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg" alt="OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA" border="0">
<img src="https://i.ibb.co/D8m26xc/spring-perch.jpg" alt="spring-perch" border="0">
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Hey all,
Shelby drop completed and I’m very happy with it.
I was going about it the wrong way, I had the spacers between the body and the insulator but could not get the 10mm thickness without making the matching tapers to thin, so I’ve put the insulator back in it’s original place against the body, then the 10mm spacer between the insulator and the closed and ground end coil. One other benefit is using a spacer on closed and ground end coils it has a bigger footprint and the coil does not dig into the insulator!
FYI.
So if you are doing the Shelby drop and you’re happy with the ride height you need to add 10mm spacers to get it back to same + or - a little.
But if your doing the Shelby drop to lower the car you’ll lower it about 20mm.
If you don’t want to use your coil springs with coil spring spacers you’ll have to buy new coil springs and cut then down bit by bit until your happy with the height!
FYI.
My springs are Lovell front springs FFL-17SL, Length 12”, OD 5”, Wire diameter 0.700” and give a great sports ride coupled with KONI ADJUSTABLE Big Bore Front Shock Absorbers to suit all 65 66 67 68 69 70 Mustang Models. Part no 82-1388SP3 Suit Lowered or Std Suspension, roller perches!
Unfortunately I finished the job and didn’t take any photos!
After I completed the job I took it for a test run, drove great, no bumps or scrapes!
Cheers Phil.
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Great work Phil
Great advice for blokes who do their own upgrades and projects also....
Plus our classics are not that complicated and the satisfaction of doing it ourselves heavily outweighs sending it out to a big $$$$$$$ shop..
Nothing better than getting your hands dirty.....and you can always tell your wife you were fixing the mower.......again..
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Love the work Phil, car is looking great!! Shelby drop is on my list of things to do also.
In terms of chassis connectors, I'm curious to see what what people think the 'ideal' set of chassis connectors would be? I've just started up my fabrication/machining business again (after 10 years off) and have been wanting to do a suite of Mustang parts (along with a range of other parts). I've started building chassis connectors for my car and once I'm happy I'll build a jig and do a small production run.
Currently I'm messing around with the rear frame connection points. Im thinking of a couple options, one for stock leaf location and one for leaf relocation inboard of the frame rail. Also maybe an integrated mount for tramp bars? With the connectors I've used 65x35x4, I've done the stress modelling in CAD and it seems stiffer than most other connectors on the market.
Sorry for hijacking the post, just interested in your thoughts. I'll start another thread soon.
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Actually Chris66pny
Highjacking is completely welcome mate...
I for one cannot wait for your new thread and input...
Love the ideas.
Plus the box section size you have chosen for your sub frame connectors is rock solid...
CAD modelling is a smart art..... :event: :event:
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Hey Chris,
Great news and you’re not crashing my post only adding to it! Conversation, assistance, advice and answers.
This can only help, maybe you’ll get some interest from those interested in custom subframe connectors.
My photos don’t do the subframe connectors justice as they are beautiful the way I’ve linked them in to the four link suspension. Actually the rectangle box would fit better into the front chassis rails!
Now there’s a product restomoders may be interested in, if you fitting subframe connectors go all the way, add some kind of link suspension, but buyers need somewhat mechanical ability to fit! And there is a UK coil-over manufacturer with an Australian office in western Sydney. I happen to have switched over to.
I’ve got to raise the car again today for another job and I’ll take better photos around this area.
I’ll say it again the Dazecars design connectors really follow the floor pan and angle out to the rear chassis rail beautifully.
Cheers Mate, Phil.
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Thanks guys, appreciate it. Would be great to see how you've tied in the 4 link phil.
Ill take some more photos of what i have so far, reason I went for 65X35 section was to keep a lower profile and not impact car to road clearance, ive tucked it as tight as i can to the floor also. Ill check out the dimensions to the daze ones, i reckon they will be close! I want to eventually run the car with wider tyres (mini tub) and lower so future proofing the connectors now is important. Ive also opted for a 'slip over' frame rail connector for the front instead of a 'slot in', I think its an easier install and if the connectors are to ever be removed it might be a bit easier (although i think realistically once they are on their on for good!).
Interestingly when modelling the 65x35x4 section it was just as stiff as a 50x50x3 section that most connectors use.
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Hey 67,
You shouldn’t need to remove the carpet, you’re only welding the chassis rails, just make sure you keep a good eye on the interior and spray down with water in a spray bottle, the danger is if you get a fire inside the channel, then you’d need co2 extinguisher.
The front end of the channel is this only part that’s needs welding, you should be able to link the back in to existing suspension bolts and extend the leaf spring loop bolt to screw into the subframe connector.
Email me full full size photos.
Cheers phildrury59@gmail.com
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Hey all,
Latest projects, coils spacers machined to 8.5mm to get desired ride height, third photo is a shock attachment block to better prevent the shock bolt that previously bent slightly!
Cheers Phil.
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Hey all,
I’ve taken my car for a few drives since my modifications and the front ride height has settled to 25” to the wheel aches and looks great, no scrapes.
In normal driving around town I can’t tell if there is any improvement in the Shelby drop or the chassis connectors.
The Shelby drop camber geometry improvements may have helped my wide tyres from rubbing!
You may notice it on fast flowing bumpy corners or hard cornering.
We’ve got a brilliant track in Mount Panorama but your mad going fast on it, Police patrol it 24/7.
It did go around the cutting today very nicely though and not scraping through the esses.
But one thing you will notice in the long term is no paint cracking, apparently you get bad cracking at the A pillars at the top of the windscreen if you drive them hard and the body starts flexing!
For what it’s worth I think both jobs are well worth the work involved!
Cheers Phil.