Mustang Owners Club Australia Forum
Technical & General Discussion Area => Concours & Show n Shine Judging => Topic started by: HAPPY ONE on May 17, 2016, 08:44:29 pm
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All I can say is WTF ...What a joke and won't be wasting my money effort or time next time around....... :tissue: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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So Happy one Not Happy :lmao: :lmao: or Happy one not a Happy one :grin:
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lol I know how you feel.......
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Its a tough gig guys I used to be a national Jaguar judge and was chief judge in QLD a few times, not for the faint hearted, we used to judge the jags with white gloves on the hoist to look for dirt and oil on the under carriage , have you ever tried to make a 50's/60's Jag not leak oil? trust me if you try hard enough you can. I recall a bloke flying to the UK to the connelly leather factory to hand pick the hides for his car and it lost on the wrong wheel nuts that he purchased new for $35 each, but they were wrong non the less for that year of car. Dont bother its a wank. But It does preserve cars kind of how they left the factory at least.
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What exactly was a joke about it?
Everyone's car is "supposed' to be judged the same way.
There might be a little favoritism at some of the small non MCA shows but that "shouldn't" happen at the MCA shows.
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I bet it was too shiny Ed.. :drool: :bow:
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Just for shits and giggles sake, will show you both score sheets next time your over Lee
We seriously have to smile about it all and take it in our stride, but I don't think you could get two cars that are at completely different levels .......yet the scores are very close for both (vert = 348 and Mach 1 = 380 out of 500) fully expected that sort of score for the vert.
e.g only 1 point separated both cars in the category of "Exterior condition" ......the black Mach score was only 81 out of 100 when it has had a sensational paint job compared to our vert which scored 80 - yes other contributing factors like a few scratches on the door glass ...and apparently scratches on the scuff plates “which is funny because they were brand new and installed the day before the show” but who am I to know any better !
And there was also a comment noted on both cars in that category of “evidence of dust base of seat - WTF
Oh well you live and learn .....I love both cars just the way they are but will stick to "show n shine" class and other events where the judging is more realistic in future.
:smilies: :grin:
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Yeah I'm with you Ed, I'm building my car for me, not really interested in having it judged so someone else can tell me what isn't quite good enough or what they don't like, mine isn't on the road yet and I've already put a scratch on it, so there's 10 points gone already..lol :thud:
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It might be fun to borrow a rusty beater and enter it in the driven class . You might win a prize for having the lowest scoring Mustang ever. :lmao:
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All I can say is WTF ...What a joke and won't be wasting my money effort or time next time around....... :tissue: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
Can't have been much more of a joke / waste of time than this!! :lmao:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/qF_Z4c7j730 (http://www.youtube.com/embed/qF_Z4c7j730)
Yeah I'm with you Ed, I'm building my car for me, not really interested in having it judged so someone else can tell me what isn't quite good enough or what they don't like, mine isn't on the road yet and I've already put a scratch on it, so there's 10 points gone already..lol :thud:
:agree:
I'd be happy to have my car judged, but it isn't even close to 'concours' anymore, and it never will be again!
.. I'll stick with the show n' shine... Or just drive it :event:
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It might be fun to borrow a rusty beater and enter it in the driven class . You might win a prize for having the lowest scoring Mustang ever. :lmao:
Thats too funny ....but it's already been done ! :pepper:
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Welcome to the world of Concours Judging, where politics and good mates outweigh the quality of the car. I have met a number of fantastic judges who were skilled and dedicated and I didn't have an issue with them telling me that my exhaust bolts were wrong. Then there are those judges that couldn't tell the difference between a steering wheel and a spare wheel and I have experienced a number of them. Two of the more notorious things I have experienced are:
A Boss 302 getting top billing even though it was running a 351 Cleveland and dripping oil from every orifice.
The myth perpetrated that 67 GT500's came off the line with 390's due to an engine shortage.
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Like I've said before,
Concours Judging certainly brings up a lot of issues and interesting debates & I am sure we aren't only ones having these type of issues.
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Then there are those judges that couldn't tell the difference between a steering wheel and a spare wheel...
:lmao:
Two of the more notorious things I have experienced are:
A Boss 302 getting top billing even though it was running a 351 Cleveland and dripping oil from every orifice.
Yes, but this only substantiated the owners claim for his particular class that it truly was a "daily driver".
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Would you believe that those two examples were related to Gold level cars?
I think the Boss got the goods (or Silver at least) but the GT500 owner left in tears. There was popular debate for a number of years as people pushed for the Shelby to attain Gold level as they were mates with the owner.
All competition judging has the same dramas and they make for good stories over a couple of beers.
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Like I've said before,
Concours Judging certainly brings up a lot of issues and interesting debates & I am sure we aren't only ones having these type of issues.
Herman - this was only Display Class ...not concourse ......but it would appear the judging was based on the same merits. So maybe my idea of Display is not the same as others ?
Also to my way of thinking, who gives a cracker in show n shine or display class if your spare wheel is not matching all the other tyres & wheels ...again it isn't concourse ....maybe I'm missing something but it makes no sense to me !
In reading the statement on the top of the judging sheets this category is supposed to encourage you to go to the next stage of being concourse - which I find ridiculous as they accept non concourse / modified cars into display class . AND who's owners may or may not want to make changes to go back to an original state - it also clearly states modifications are not to be taken into consideration.
Just noted it says on the mach 1 form the compressor and water pump is showing signs of rust - that's crap - the compressor was freshly painted but the water pump and AC bracket were left in a raw cast iron state as that's how I think they were in the factory ?? (maybe wrong on that, but why should that make any difference)
Any how it is what it is :thumb:
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Just noted it says on the mach 1 form the compressor and water pump is showing signs of rust - that's crap - the compressor was freshly painted but the water pump and AC bracket were left in a raw cast iron state as that's how I think they were in the factory ?? :thumb:
I sometimes paint the bare cast iron parts with matte finish clear so they have some protection but still look bare.
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The problem with concourse judging, is that these cars are 50 years old now and a lot have been restored now. .....Once a car has been restored , it is not original and therefore cannot possibly be the same as when it left the factory .......Everyone has a different "interpretation "of concourse correct and that is where the problem lies.
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Herman - this was only Display Class ...not concourse ......but it would appear the judging was based on the same merits. So maybe my idea of Display is not the same as others ?
Also to my way of thinking, who gives a cracker in show n shine or display class if your spare wheel is not matching all the other tyres & wheels ...again it isn't concourse ....maybe I'm missing something but it makes no sense to me !
In reading the statement on the top of the judging sheets this category is supposed to encourage you to go to the next stage of being concourse - which I find ridiculous as they accept non concourse / modified cars into display class . AND who's owners may or may not want to make changes to go back to an original state - it also clearly states modifications are not to be taken into consideration.
All I can say is contact your State's Head Judge and or Delegate and discuss this matter further. I know it can be frustrating but discussing it with the correct people can give you a better understanding
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Would you believe that those two examples were related to Gold level cars?
Well after seeing what kind of looks like an India Fire 428 in the link below that was in the Thoroughbred class and built buy a guy that purportedly builds what the club classifies as thoroughbred cars, I am not surprised in the least.
http://mustang.org.au/2-uncategorised/26-mustang-nationals-2016.html (http://mustang.org.au/2-uncategorised/26-mustang-nationals-2016.html)
What I am surprised at is when someone asks a person a question about the quality of a car etc, and that person answers the question, then several others get all pissed off at the answer . It reminds me of a move where Jack Ncholson says "The truth...you can't handle the truth!". :lmao:
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Judged classes - been there, done that, can't be bothered any more with spending weeks cleaning the car & obsessing over it. I did enjoy judging too, it's exacting work though & not at all easy.
I won quite a few trophies with a previous Mustang, appreciated of course. But my favourite by far was a very unexpected win of 'Peoples' Choice' in a large mixed group of Show'n'Shine classic cars at a major NZ annual show. Totally unscientific such a class may be but actually the most appreciated & a hard one to get.
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ive never been to one of these events, how much for the honour of having a car judged?
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Judged classes - been there, done that, can't be bothered any more with spending weeks cleaning the car & obsessing over it. I did enjoy judging too, it's exacting work though & not at all easy.
I won quite a few trophies with a previous Mustang, appreciated of course. But my favourite by far was a very unexpected win of 'Peoples' Choice' in a large mixed group of Show'n'Shine classic cars at a major NZ annual show. Totally unscientific such a class may be but actually the most appreciated & a hard one to get.
I have had similar experiences, I have 3 trophies for my Mustang and 2 were very unexpected.
1st trophy 2013 I won I had put no effort into presenting or cleaning the car as I was still working on it at 1am in the morning just trying to get it running to as to take it to the show, I did not even bother entering it for judging as in my opinion it was not presentable and filthy but the wife entered it and I won Top 5.
2nd trophy 2015 I won I had put a fair amount of effort in and then drove it 150 klms to the show through numerous showers and once we arrived at the show it was a beautiful day so I chamoised the outside of the car but did not get carried away and clean the underside, engine bay or wheel housings when I saw the number of cars and the quality of them all (Still thought I was in with a chance) but I managed to get top 15
3rd trophy 2015 I put a lot of effort in but when I arrived at the show there was over 900 Cars and a lot of extremely good quality cars and thought I had buckleys of being in with a chance but I brought home Best Modified 1966 to 1970
There are 2 other shows that I had entered into and put the hard yards in and in my opinion should have won trophies at but came home with nothing 1 in my opinion was a trophy for mates show and another I might have been racing the car at the time of judging otherwise my car had it all over the car that had taken the trophy.
I never built my car as a trophy hunter and I think that shows with me driving it as often as I do (2 to 3 times a week generally), distances I drive (3000 klms over 4 days), where I have driven it (dirt roads) and towing a caravan as well as racing it but I must admit once I won the first trophy I wanted to win more.
I still do show it but I don't put that much effort in just a general clean but most of the time my car is clean anyway as I do love it and don't like it with dirty wheel houses, engine bay or anywhere that is easily seen etc. yet the underside only gets touched if I am going to show it.
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I reckon you've done alright Happy in regards to your Mach 1 :thumb:, if the muppets judging it only noticed the ac pump and water pump showed signs of rust and not that they are bolted to a 429 cj ?,( which if I'm correct is non standard) well done I say...... :grin:
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I reckon you've done alright Happy in regards to your Mach 1 :thumb:, if the muppets judging it only noticed the ac pump and water pump showed signs of rust and not that they are bolted to a 429 cj ?,( which if I'm correct is non standard) well done I say...... :grin:
Priceless ....Love it ..... :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
yep you're correct, had not picked up on that point Pinto Pete, not one word mentioned about that on the score sheet ....makes you wonder hey
Then again, as they say Mods are "NOT' to be taken into consideration
:cheers:
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We will just stick to Show N Shine from now on, if we do enter any events - And also look for a wider mix
Last weekend for example, we stumbled across purely by accident, up at Mt Tamborine a great little event called the Festival of Elegance - good mix of old cars including a few mustangs new and older ones, so we pulled up and paid our $10 for a park and went for a walk through the Gallery Walk at Eagle Height was a great time then we had a great lunch up at the micro brewery. Perfect day really!
I think I may have also spotted 69ish Mach 1 parked up in one of the shops private parking spots near the top of the strip - nice park 69ish ...if that was you ??
:smilies:
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We will just stick to Show N Shine from now on, if we do enter any events - And also look for a wider mix
Last weekend for example, we stumbled across purely by accident, up at Mt Tamborine a great little event called the Festival of Elegance - good mix of old cars including a few mustangs new and older ones, so we pulled up and paid our $10 for a park and went for a walk through the Gallery Walk at Eagle Height was a great time then we had a great lunch up at the micro brewery. Perfect day really!
I think I may have also spotted 69ish Mach 1 parked up in one of the shops private parking spots near the top of the strip - nice park 69ish ...if that was you ??
:smilies:
Certainly was me parked up and I think I saw you drive by in the vert with 3 passengers.
I was having lunch at the little Cafe with the daughters boyfriend's Parents, easy to watch my car and easy to watch everything cruise by. I have managed to get that parking spot 2 weekends in a row as well as the time that we were last up there before that.
I had thought there were a few more than usual nice cars out and about but didn't see the festival.
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My car is no where near show quality,in saying that its been painted 20yrs and been on the road 19yrs. Like i've said before the best judges are the people on the street giving me the thumbs up. :burnout:
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the best judges are the people on the street giving me the thumbs up. :burnout:
:agree: Who needs some crusty old guy to tell you you've got rusty hood springs? :bolt:
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:agree: Who needs some crusty old guy to tell you you've got rusty hood springs? :bolt:
...and rusty fender bolts. :lmao:
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But sir, that is the original patina! :lmao:
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...and rusty fender bolts. :lmao:
Missing engine mount bolts count ? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
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Missing engine mount bolts count ? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Well if they are not there, they can't deduct for them not having the correct finish. :lmao:
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My car is no where near show quality,in saying that its been painted 20yrs and been on the road 19yrs. Like i've said before the best judges are the people on the street giving me the thumbs up. :burnout:
:agree: :thumb:
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you car do it as you wish just have fun and and enjoy it
its a mates club
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its a mates club
I know from being involved with Concours & Display class judging at both State & Nationals level and it's really disappointing to hear this kind of thing, as they work extremely hard to ensure there isn't any prescriptive favoritism when it comes to judging.
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The Mustang Club has a document called " Nationals/Concours Guidlines & Rules " available for general viewing on the National website.
http://mustang.org.au/docs/concours-guidelines.pdf (http://mustang.org.au/docs/concours-guidelines.pdf)
Peterp
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Thanks for sharing
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To put any car , any make into concours judging the car has to be factory correct , simple as that , if you want to do well . I have never put any of my cars into that sort of judging and never will , and think the judges do a amazing job and good on them . At best I have put a few of my mustangs in car shows but only in show and shines and won plenty of times , and quite often I don't even enter just park them . My 70 Mach 1 is quite a nice car but not a concours car , but is good for show and shine shows , but I only enter sometimes even tho I am at the show . I went to the last mustang car show at the Gold Coast and must say I think the judges were over the top when it came to the show and shine cars and were too hard on them when things were not factory correct and I'm not talking about the modified section . Anyway to all the judges a big :thumb: you have a hard job . To all the guys complaining ,get over it . :bolt:
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I learn't long ago if you can't handle the criticism don't put yourself out there to receive it. If you enter your car into any show every Tom , Dick or Harry who walks past is going to knock it, let alone any judges. I think you need a pretty thick skin. In 2015 Adelaide Nationals I received poor judging on my car & I was pissed off but hey, what do you do. Some day's your car is a hit, other days its a bomb. My car has all four tyres mounted to the Magnum 500 rims in exact spots so the match , all 4 centre caps line up exact and match, on the day I jacked up all 4X wheels and got them all level, straight and looking fine, cleaned all the tread and were looking like brand new. I got 13 out of a possible 15 for presentation not condition, presentation. I later learned a mate on the same day got 15 out of 15 for presentation and he had stock wheels dunger tyres and just parked up without a care in the world as to how his wheels looked and wullaa 15 out of 15. So go figure, sometimes it comes down to what the judges like on the day. :ouch: :ouch: :ouch:
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My car has all four tyres mounted to the Magnum 500 rims in exact spots so the match , all 4 centre caps line up exact and match, on the day I jacked up all 4X wheels and got them all level, straight and looking fine, cleaned all the tread and were looking like brand new.
That's just your OCD and I know what mean about what the judges are like on the day.
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I learn't long ago if you can't handle the criticism don't put yourself out there to receive it. If you enter your car into any show every Tom , Dick or Harry who walks past is going to knock it, let alone any judges. I think you need a pretty thick skin. In 2015 Adelaide Nationals I received poor judging on my car & I was pissed off but hey, what do you do. Some day's your car is a hit, other days its a bomb. My car has all four tyres mounted to the Magnum 500 rims in exact spots so the match , all 4 centre caps line up exact and match, on the day I jacked up all 4X wheels and got them all level, straight and looking fine, cleaned all the tread and were looking like brand new. I got 13 out of a possible 15 for presentation not condition, presentation. I later learned a mate on the same day got 15 out of 15 for presentation and he had stock wheels dunger tyres and just parked up without a care in the world as to how his wheels looked and wullaa 15 out of 15. So go figure, sometimes it comes down to what the judges like on the day. :ouch: :ouch: :ouch:
Well if that's not dedication - I don't know what is.
Sorry it didn't work out for you on the day.
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I have done this once myself and although I was pretty happy with the result I don't think I will do it again because of all the work required just to get it in the state that it needs to be. I wasn't able to get it up on a hoist to clean it properly underneath but that was my issue. I enjoyed the experience.
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Its a pretty interesting topic, but you know, if your entering your car in a state concourse, I think it would need to be a pretty good car and done to a high standard, and good on you for having a car that is worthy of entering, but if your entering a car at a nationals, I think the benchmark is somewhat higher, and in my view justifiable, your talking about competing with some of the best cars in the country, you are amongst the elite, lets not forget this, the nationals is no local car show, so I tend to agree the judges would have a very tuff job in deed, I have never entered a state or national concourse, but I've seen cars at this level and it must be a tuff job to judge these cars.
If you enter a car show, expect to receive judges opinions, if you don't like the feedback, perhaps you shouldn't be entering or your car has some improvements against the competition on the day, its not to say its a bad car.
Just drive it and enjoy mate, but keep things in perspective, and stay HAPPY :thumb:
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If you enter a car show, expect to receive judges opinions, if you don't like the feedback, perhaps you shouldn't be entering or your car has some improvements against the competition on the day, its not to say its a bad car.
Just drive it and enjoy mate, but keep things in perspective, and stay HAPPY :thumb:
I agree with you to certain point, however at both State & Nationals levels a vehicle entered in Display/Show'n'Shine is mainly judged on the condition of the vehicle that's presented in front which includes both original & modified vehicles. This levels out the the playing field.
IMHO, if a an entrant has received a deduction for non-original parts in Display/Show'n'Shine class then I would expect questions to be asked or feedback to be provided to the relative Judging body.
PS you do need a pretty think skin as no one looks their baby being picked on
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Shelby mustro Ryan will be able to answer that question . He put his 65 coupe in the show and shine and I was right next to the judge that was shocked when he did not have a matching spare wheel and tyre to compared to what was on his mustang . Think Ryan has 17 inch rims and only a 14 spare and the rims didn't even look the same :thud: . I saw them lift a spare wheel cover off another car and guess what same problem . My mustangs are both the same so no 1st prize for me :cry:
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I know l will be taking this up with my National Delegates so these matters are rectified in future events. It may not change anything from this year's event but l hopefully this won't happen again in the future
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In Ryan's case they may not have taken any points off in his class . Ryan's 65 is modified from front to rear ,so a different spare means nothing .
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PS you do need a pretty think skin as no one looks their baby being picked on
The whole purpose of going to a judged show is to intentionally have your car picked on since they only take points off for inaccuracies and imperfections etc but don't give any points for a lack of these items.
If there are no deductions, then theoretically you have a perfect car.
If someone wants a Trophy for their car, they can simply buy one. :thumb:
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In Ryan's case they may not have taken any points off in his class . Ryan's 65 is modified from front to rear ,so a different spare means nothing .
Both my cars suffered this same issue too - They did make comment and deducted points with mine !!
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The whole purpose of going to a judged show is to intentionally have your car picked on
Completely agree ......however, I also believe if one is going to profess to be qualified to be a judge ...then understand the class you are judging and do not go outside those bounds. i.e don't impose a concourse view point on Show N Shine or Display class ....leave it for the ones with the much bigger peckers.
Everyone spends a lot of time, money and effort in order to put there cars up for a show ....some better then others and that's fine. frankly I'm more than happy to be out classed on those grounds any day of the week.
:bow:
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Completely agree ......however, I also believe if one is going to profess to be qualified to be a judge ...then understand the class you are judging and do not go outside those bounds. i.e don't impose a concourse view point on Show N Shine or Display class ....leave it for the ones with the much bigger peckers.
Everyone spends a lot of time, money and effort in order to put there cars up for a show ....some better then others and that's fine. frankly I'm more than happy to be out classed on those grounds any day of the week.
:bow:
If everyone's car is judged equally without bias, then I don't see a problem with using the same criteria for show and shine as they do for concourse because there will still be a first, second, and third place awarded even if the first place only gets 75 out of 500 points etc.
In your case, it sounds like you think your nicest car scored lower than your other one which certainly wouldn't be right if in fact that is the case, but only you can really determine that . My guess is that to get the most benefit out of this, you simply go over each sheet with each car and compare their notes and see if you agree but don't compare one car to another . If one car had new glass but it was scratched, well, it is scratched.
If one car has a cheap $500.00 paint job with orange peel but no scratches, and the other one has a $10,000.00 paint job but has some scratches, the one with the cheaper paint job may score higher.
In other words, try to be objective and use the sheets to judge your own cars and see what you com up with.
The whole point of judging is to have some type of uniform criteria so there can be consistency . If they don't take points off for chips and scratches and dings etc, then there is nothing that is going to separate a beat up car from a nice one.
I can also tell you that in the high end classes in the US, they look at things like the paint on the control arms to see if it is right and if your lower ball joints have a grease fitting or the wrong rivets they take off points and if it has replica stickers instead of ink stamps they take off points and f the clock has a smooth movement instead of the ratcheting one, they can take off points . Either a car is correct or it is not . I even know of two cars that were only like a couple points apart and one lost because it had a little dust on a tire and the Chevy club is even harsher . If your exhaust manifolds don't have engine paint overspray on them they take off points.