Engine Build

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Offline Glen Mach 1

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Engine Build
« on: November 08, 2022, 05:09:10 pm »
Hi all,

Any views on this engine build for $15,000? Or as an alternative what would you do to an exisitng 351c block.  Not looking for crazy power but want a strong engine.

List of parts
* Ford Cleveland 1.9 hp starter motor
* New Hei dissy 
* Harland shard roller rockers & locks
* Manley guide plates
* Mildon premium rocker arm studs
*True roller gear set double row
*Power bond harmonic balancer
*Melling hi-volume oil pump
* Melling oil pump drive
* Magnum freeze plug kit*
* ARP bolts & stud kit
*Cleveite main bearing set @0 standard
* Cleveite rod bearing set @0 standard
* Cleveite cam bearings
* Power flex precision racing oil rings
* Childs & albert piston rings
* Kellie’s 6.2 h beam rods& Arp bolts
* Forged 30 over pistons 
* Cam tech solid cam shaft
* 16 solid lifters
* High energy hi volume oil sump
* eagle 4340 forged crank 3.75 stroke x 6.2 rod length
* 351 Cleveland block virgin block that has not been bored or over sized
* one set off 2v open chamber heads with new solid spring & stainless valves ported & polished
*new pushes rods to suit the roller rockers
Cheers Glen

Offline Reborn67

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2022, 05:27:40 pm »
 Hey Glen, l would ditch the Melling oil pump drive shaft for an ARP one, you prefer a solid over a roller cam.?

Offline jiffy

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2022, 06:29:48 pm »
seems like a lot of money for a stroker engine that will be limited by cast-iron 2v heads.


If you're spending that sort of money, I'd be choosing aftermarket aluminium heads, and possibly not going the stroker route. You can get great power out of a 351C (the parts list didn't talk about the carb or intake manifold, so do you have them already or is that more spend?).

The 351C std bore block is a nice to have, but I'm assuming it will need to be bored before use? If not, and this is a std bore build, what premium are you paying for that block that could be spent on a used block needing a +0.020/0.030 bore and get you the heads AND the stroker crank/rods. Seems to be a lot of premium parts, and a premium price.
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Offline Glen Mach 1

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2022, 05:45:36 pm »
Thanks for responding.

My current engine has a Holly 750 carb and an good intake manifold which are not included in the price.  I tend to agree and was going to update the original 351c with aluminum 3v heads and new solid camshaft - really only looking to spend about $8000 on the existing engine.

The existing 351C seems to run well and not sure if it needs to be machined or bored - picture attached.
Cheers Glen

Offline Glen Mach 1

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2022, 05:48:16 pm »
Picture attached.
Cheers Glen

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2022, 08:53:59 pm »
Hey Glen,
I agree with jiffy, I would not stroke it or bore it if not required.
Overbored engines suffer excessive heat transfer to water ways.
Stroked are good for torque but looses the ability to rev.
Is your 351c two of four bolt mains.
Forged crank and forged SRP pistons for sure.
Nice Edelbrock heads, Cleverlands have nice big intake ports matched with Edelbrock Air Gap manifold.
FAST EZ-EFI Self-Tuning Fuel Injection System.
If you still need a distributor ICE is well respected.
CVR starter motor.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

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Offline Glen Mach 1

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2022, 12:00:42 pm »
Thanks for all the advice, I think unless any other suggestions:

EFI, CHI 3v cylinder heads & intake with new springs & retainer and custom grind solid roller cam.
Cheers Glen

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2022, 02:39:00 pm »
You need to tell us what you want out of your engine ? HP and torque . I would only fit a std oil pump ,not hi volume. It’s cheaper to go new alloy heads than muck around with doing a set of old cast iron 2v heads . No need to use a solid lifter cam ,just stay hyd or go a hyd roller . Flat tappet solid is old school but still work great if that’s what you want .  The right combo 351c work well . 393 stroker is good also if the 351 crank and rods are shot . Is it a manual or auto trans ? ,diff ratio ? Rear tyre size ?  Forget the solid roller cam .
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 02:41:51 pm by GLENN 70 »

Offline Glen Mach 1

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2022, 01:53:33 pm »
I'm looking for some more responsiveness and consistency from the engine and looking to add about 80-100hp from stock.  I don't think the engines needs to be bored and not overly keen on a stoker kit if I can avoid it.  The following is coming from they guy doing the rebuild:

"The EFI is the way to go, that and a hi output ignition system makes a great combination . The 3V cylinder head is the most improved thing that came along for the Cleveland engine mix it up with a roller cam and it adds up to reliable performance at the blip of the throttle . the 3v head will require an intake manifold to match the intake port.

We prefer  CHI cylinder heads & intake but we change the springs & retainer and will go a custom grind solid roller cam"

I already have Patriot headers and an XForce 2.5 exhaust system which made a big difference when installed.
Cheers Glen

Offline GEOFF289

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2022, 02:27:08 pm »
As the other Glenn said, forget the solid roller. A stock Clevo + 100 hp really doesn't need it unless you plan on redlining it all the time. Have to say $15K for another 100 hp seems pretty steep to me.

Offline Glen Mach 1

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2022, 05:06:12 pm »
No... the $15,000 was for a full new stroked motor, have moved back to tweaking the existing engine.
Cheers Glen

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2022, 07:29:54 pm »
I think your over thinking it . A basic 351c that will produce 400 ish HP . Std stroke , holley 770 vac sec or smaller  , edelbrock air gap intake , roller rockers etc etc ,edelbrock RPM 2v heads , hyd roller cam or cam package.  Std oil pump , double row timing gear set , arp oil pump drive  , mechanical fuel pump  and a rebuild if needed .  No EFI for now . Make sure the fuel line through the car is 3/8 not 5/16 . Our GTHO phase 3 race version had 380hp with 4v heads ,too big ,a 780  vac sec holley , cast iron crapy intake manifold , HM headers and crapy exhaust  and not much else . What transmission are you using ? Diff ratio ?

Offline FB.65.68.70

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2022, 08:30:32 pm »
Hi Glen,
apart from saying that you want an extra 100 hp, you havent said what you have now and what sort of power you want from a motor. All top end, good midrange or bottom and mid. Ive attached an article that is a few years old, but gives a pretty good rundown of 10 different cleveland builds and the type of power they produced. Hope this helps in figuring out your build.




KEC Articles: Clevo Alley
Part 1: 20 Dyno Proven Cleveland Combinations.

With all the performance parts available for Cleveland engines in Australia, Perth Street Car Magazine has been looking for a way to make sense of it all and present a comprehensive variety of different engine combinations that are proven on dyno to give strong torque and power. These combinations need to feature single and dual plane manifold options along with hydraulic, solid and roller camshaft profiles. Most importantly, these motors need to run on pump unleaded for hassle-free cruising and drag racing. We eventually put this idea to Andrew Kostecki from Kostecki Engine Centre in Morley. We told Andrew that we needed some combos, not just one or two but 20! KEC have taken out track and Australian records in their Cleveland-powered Mustang; running 8.38 ETs with a single 750 carb and 4V heads.

After much cajoling and persuasion Perth Street Car finally made it into KEC's inner sanctum - not the flow bench room, or even the dyno test cell but much deeper - right into their massive dyno testing database. Once inside we managed to extract some of the most interesting Clevo Combos in Australia, from mild street engines to insane stroker animals. All of these engines have been built over recent years and are currently on the prowl right across Western Australia. More than this even, within the tests themselves there are manifold, camshaft and cylinder head swaps, enabling specific component comparisons. This is the ultimate guide to piecing together the perfect Cleveland for your car. In the first part of this two part series we examine the first 10 engines in our all time list of 20.

The First 10

Our first 10 combos feature a range of cylinder heads, camshafts and intake manifolds - all of which are commonly used in many Clevelands - the trick is knowing which ones to use in harmony to produce the desired torque and power levels over the widest possible rev range. All except one of the engines have standard 351 crankshafts (3.50inch stroke) and 30-thou over bores (357 CID).

Combo 1

The fast fact sheet tells the story here. This would have to be the most common cylinder head configuration of the last 15 years (or more). The 2V heads have been fitted with larger 4V valves and then the short turn radii have been blended to suit and the valve guides streamlined to reduce their impedance to air flow. Topped with a 750 carburettor and a dual plane Performer manifold, this engine was tested with an Isky hydraulic camshaft with a relatively large 270-degrees of duration at 50-thou. While the engine produced a nice flat torque curve, peaking at 353 Ibs/ft at 4600 rpm, the power stakes were not that impressive compared to eight of the other engines. Peak horsepower was 339 at 5600 rpm. The engine made good averages of 306hp and 339 Ibs/ft across its rev range, making it an exceptional mild street combination for entry level Ford fans. A slightly shorter duration camshaft would have produced greater bottom and mid-range torque in conjunction with the dual plane manifold but would have also cost some higher rpm horsepower.

Combo 2

Combination 2 utilises KEC's own CNC ported 2V cast iron cylinder heads. The intake and exhaust port profiles were developed over several years after testing dozens of minor port shape variations on dyno. The final port profiles offer excellent flow but more importantly, high intake port velocity which creates optimum cylinder filling for greater torque, power and throttle response. This combination was designed for mid and upper rpm power and yet it still produced the third highest torque peak in this group of 10 engines. A 246degree (at 50-thou) Crane camshaft was used, together with an 825 cfm Demon carburettor and an X-cellerator single plane manifold. Peak power shot up nearly 100 hp over the first Combo to an impressive 431 at 6800 rpm. The high velocity heads worked well to produce 408 Ibs/ft of torque at 4500 rpm and a healthy average of 385 Ibs/ft. This engine averaged 381 hp between 3900 and 6800 rpm, and it is this very broad spread of power that makes it very potent indeed. These heads flow 244 cfm of air - only 1 cfm more than the previous combo and yet they produce far more torque and power thanks to greater intake velocity.

Combo 3

The third Combo is the same engine as Combo 2 except with a TFC single plane manifold aboard instead of the trusty Weiand X-cellerator. It seems hard to believe but swapping from one single plane design to another netted 16 hp gain in peak power to 447 hp but look at the average power across the test range - this leaped from 381 to a mighty 415 hp. Peak torque was also up by 5 Ibs/ft to 413 at 5200 rpm. This relatively mild combination yielded a torque curve rivaled only by a serious roller-cammed monster and a stroker engine. What's more, this iron-headed wonder produced excellent mid range power that extended all the way to 6700 rpm - all this with a fairly small solid camshaft too. Combo 3 is a very cost-effective, all-round performer.

Combo 4

This combination takes us on our first foray into the land of aluminium cylinder heads. The engine has the exact same short motor as Combo 3 - the camshaft, manifold and carby are identical. Making their presence felt is a pair of KEC CNC ported CHI 3V aluminium cylinder heads. While these heads flow significant cfm, their ports are also much larger than those in the previously tested CNC 2V heads. Larger ports on the same displacement short motor means slower air speed through the ports, less bottom end and mid range torque and less snappy manners on the street. The upside, however, is impressive top-end horsepower figures. At first glance the engine looks like a barnstormer with its 476 rearing horses and 402 Ibs/ft of twist. It is the averages that tell the real story here though. Figures of 333hp and 364 Ibs/ft are significantly less than those generated by the humble 2Vs in Combo 3. While this engine makes sensational peak power, the larger intake ports really lend themselves towards a larger displacement engine. With the right rear-end gearing and torque converter stall speed this Combo would deliver the goods but Combo 3 would actually be a quicker car in the real world with its higher averages - it's a broad spread of torque that gets a car hauling off the line. Note that these cylinder heads flow a massive 360 cfm with a 260cc intake port and yet the power gain over the 244 cfm CNC 2V heads is only 29 hp and the 2V makes more torque. This further illustrates that total cfm flow is not the only indication of how an engine will perform in the real world.

Combo 5

The next combination takes a step back in time to the days of the legendary
4V cylinder heads. With massive intake ports and big-block sized valves these heads were built to breathe at high rpm on all-out race engines. Killed off during the reign of the XB, these heads are still popular today with die-hards. This engine runs a similar 245-degree camshaft to the previous three but this one was ground by Comp Cams. Matched with a 750 cfm carburettor and a Torker single plane manifold the venerable 4V behaved exactly as predicted. The heads produced a healthy 408 hp at 6500 rpm and also managed 353 Ibs/ft of torque at a telltale 5900 rpm. Unfortunately, the bottom end and mid-range power and torque were the lowest of all the engines in this group. Those cavernous ports simply did not allow the cylinders to fill completely at lower rpm. Averages of 298hp and 312 Ibs/ft place it firmly in the classic category. Still, 400 hp is no mean feat and the heads do have that magic "4V" cast into them and that counts for a lot!

Combo 6

To further demonstrate the archaic design of the old 4Vs (having said that. KEC's own National Record holding G/Gas Mustang runs a set of 4Vs due to class rules) KEC decided to keep the same short motor as Combo 5. The difference this time is a set of CNC ported 2V heads and a Torque Power single plane manifold - everything else is the same. At first glance, a loss in peak power of 2 hp, back to 406 hp, may not impress. However, a long hard stare at the torque peak - now 400 Ibs/ft - could not help but impress. The averages show an even more marked improvement. Torque has been lifted 46 Ibs/ft across the range and power is up by 61 hp! It is suddenly obvious that the new heads and manifold have transformed the engine completely into a strong power contender with the most bottom-end torque of all the standard stroke combinations. Two horsepower at the peak doesn't seem that relevant anymore does it!

Combo 7

Just to push our luck a little, KEC swapped the Torque Power single plane manifold on Combo 6 with an X-cellerator single plane. When power peaked at 411 hp, a 5hp improvement, this seemed like a good thing. However, torque dropped slightly at its peak to 394 Ibs/ft. Average torque suffered the same fate - down 5, while average power was off 4hp. With such minimal variations either way we will leave this decision to personal preference a few more horsepower or a few less foot-pounds - you decide.

Combo 8

An all new assortment of parts is featured in this engine. The CNC 2V heads are matched with a shorter duration camshaft from Iskendarian (238-degrees at 50-thou) but wider lobe separation angle. A wide lobe separation angle simply means that the centrelines of the intake and exhaust cam lobes are further apart. This has the effect of reducing overlap and giving improved idle quality, which is important in a daily driver. Increasing the lobe separation angle can also move peak power further down the rev range, boosting mid range performance. Most late model engines use wide lobe separation angles for both of these reasons and matched to a good pair of cylinder heads they can make excellent power and still conform to emission requirements. This very nice street engine pumped out 434hp with a 750 double-pumper and a Performer dual plane manifold aboard. Average power between 3600 rpm and 6700 rpm was a stout 362 hp. On the street this engine would feel very sedate but haul extremely hard thanks to a strong torque average of 370 Ibs over such a wide 3100 rpm band. Peak torque was 389 Ibs/ft at 4900 rpm. This engine produced very smooth power delivery and a very fat torque curve.

Combo 9

The ninth combination steps both power and torque up several notches. It retains the CNC 2V heads and 750 carburettor but is fitted with the magic ingredient - an Isky 265-degree (at 50-thou) solid roller camshaft. We have said it before and we will say it again (and again if necessary) roller profiles can offer the ultimate compromise between street manners and all-out power. They are capable of lifting the valve to its maximum opening point very rapidly. This gives high lift but with shorter duration than a conventional flat-tappet camshaft. The result is usually better idle, more torque and excellent topend power (not to mention reduced internal friction). With a Funnelweb single plane manifold under the four-barrel carburettor the engine was let loose against the water brake and instantly made 486hp at 6700 rpm. Torque peaked at 415 Ibs/ft at 5500 rpm. This engine produced the highest torque and power of all the standard stroke engines in this group above 5300 rpm, demonstrating the camshaft's ability to extract every drop of power from the cast iron heads. Supporting these strong peak numbers are the averages of 401 hp and 384 Ibs/ft across 2800 rpm. Combo 9 runs happily on unleaded fuel and is the ideal street and strip 351 weapon.

Combo 10

We saved the juiciest Combo for last. This engine has a 3.75-inch stroker crankshaft that takes it out to 377 cubic inches. It is hard to believe how significantly 20 cubic inches can transform an engine but Clevelands respond exceptionally well to this bore and stroke configuration. The extra displacement draws on the intake ports harder, boosting port velocity, while the longer stroke mechanically increases torque production. The results are clear: equipped with an 825 Demon carburettor, a relatively mild Isky 238-degree (at 50-thou) solid roller camshaft, a CHI single plane manifold and a pair of KEC CNC ported CHI 3V heads, this stomper punched out 528hp at a modest 6000 rpm and a massive 498 Ibs/ft of torque. With an average of 466 Ibs/ft of torque it leaves the standard stroke engines in its wake. Combo 10 also achieved the highest horsepower average of 424. Stroker bottom end kits for Clevelands are readily available and cost effective. This very driveable 377 is also happy on premium unleaded and would propel most well set up Fords into the 10-second zone. It seems you really can't beat cubes!

So there you have the first installment of our 20 Clevo combinations. The ten engines presented in Part 1 will appeal to everyone's requirements and budgets. From iron-headed daily drivers to aluminium-headed strip stormers there is a dyno-proven combination to suit. In our next issue we will bring you the remaining 10 engines and a wicked twist.


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« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 07:41:16 am by FB.65.68.70 »

Offline barnett468

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2022, 02:19:33 am »
ENGINE OILING SYSTEM MODIFICATION - These engines have a marginal oil system design, and if it is not corrected, it can lead to premature engine wear or failure. If I remember correctly, there are 3 different types of oiling system upgrades you can do. One involves screwing oil restricting plugs into a couple of the passages. Another involves simply using different cam bearings, and one involves installing an oil line. I think I described these mods on Fitzy's epic 100 page thread. Do this mod even if you run a box stock engine.

FRONT CAM BEARING INSTALLATION - There is a large oil hole near the front edge of the front cam bearing boss in the block. If the front cam bearing is installed too deep, it will expose this oil hole which will reduce oil flow to other areas of the engine.

OIL RESTRICTOR CAM BEARINGS - This is the simplest way to upgrade the oil system, and the link explains how this works.  https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/grooved-cam-bearings/

OIL LINE KIT - https://www.ebay.com/itm/254304032842

OIL RESTRICTORS - Don't use these if you use the restrictor bearings. https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hrdp-1205-351-cleveland-oil-restrictors-351c-oiling-fix/

CLEVELAND ENGINE COOLING - Use the bypass thermostat system. This is 100% guaranteed to improve cooling and cures a flaw in the factory design. If you do not use this system, your engine will in fact cool less efficiently than it otherwise would. Do this mod even if you run a box stock engine.

Get a good radiator, and cooling fan etc.

Use a brass Milodon high flow thermostat. a high volume water pump can sometimes create so much pressure that forces a stock type thermostat to partially close.

COMPRESSION - Compression is King, so run as much as you possibly can for the type of gas you plan to use.

HEADS - If you only want a moderate increase in HP, and want to save a boat load of money, buy a stroker crank and stock 4V heads.  The stock heads are far cheaper than the aluminum ones and flow plenty well enough for a stroker crank in a moderate build.

ENGINE POWER AND GEARING - If you want more low end power, which will give you instant throttle response without having to install numerically high gears, then stroke whatever block you buy.

If you want an engine that is capable of revving much farther than a stock cleveland, and you don't mind running a least 3.73 gears, then don't stroke it.

FUEL INJECTION - in my opinion, fuel injection is far over glorified, and it will, NOT under any circumstances, give you a significant increase in overall hp, and the aftermarket kits are often very hard to set up properly, and are sensitive to cam choice. i think fuel injection is great...when it works properly, but i am an old school guy that prefers to have an engine feel old school with a lumpy irregular idle etc, otherwise, i might as well buy an ls chevy and be done with it.

CAM AND POWER BRAKES- solid lifter cams are cool, but a bit of a pita, and unless you want to rev to 12,000 rpm's, they aren't all that useful. The "bigger" the cam, the less effective your power brakes will be at low speed.

There is zero reason to have a custom cam ground for 90% of the apps, and if you are paying more than $150.00 extra for a custom ground cam, I don't see the value in it.

Roller cams are bitchen, but a little overkill if price is a concern.

LIFTERS - If you use roller lifters, MOREL makes the best ones.

If you use hydraulic lifters, Crower makes some that increase oil to the camshaft. There are also solid lifters that increase oil to the cam.

ROTATING ASSEMBLY - you can use chinese crank and rods like eagle brand.

BALANCER - don't use a stock type balancer.

OIL PUMP - get an oil pump that has been blueprinted

CYLINDER BORE - you can safely go .030 on a cleveland if your cylinder walls are thick enough. you can have the block sonic tested to determine wall thickness, but if your block does not need to go .030, I would use a smaller overbore, and would pay for custom pistons if the size i needed were not available.

OIL PAN - high volume oil pan . a baffled racing pan is unnecessary unless you drag race it etc.

CARBURETOR - Vacuum secondary carbs are for pussies. Annular carbs will provide the best low end throttle response because they atomize the fuel a little better than a stock 4v carb.

IGNITION SYSTEM - Are you wanting to change your current distributor, ad if so, why?

ENGINE OIL FOR BREAK IN - I only use non synthetic oil, like joe gibbs engine break in oil, for the first 500 miles. Using synthetic oil for engine break in can in fact cause the piston rings to not seat properly.

HORSEPOWER - A basic, properly built, 373 stroker with good heads and good roller cam and 3.50 gears will scare the crap out of most people, and will easily roast the bejesus out of the tires.

HIGH STALL TORQUE CONVERTER - You will need one if you have an auto trans.

FMX TRANS - If you have one of these and it is stock, it will soon be scrap metal with a high hp engine.

STROKE - you can stroke a stock block if you don't plan on drag racing it all the time like glenn does, and by this i mean that you go to the race track and run it hard, as opposed to dressing up like a drag queen then racing it like glenn may occasionally due...im just not sure exactly which one it is.  :bolt:

Hi GLENN  :hi:
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 10:57:44 am by barnett468 »

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2022, 06:27:52 pm »
Barnett I have a vac sec on my engine now  :toetapping: . Try finding a pair of 4v heads now in Australia and if you can they want the same price of a set of alloy edelbrock heads . And if I come back to the states I will return your dress you lent me ,but don’t worry I never put it on .
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 06:32:20 pm by GLENN 70 »

Offline jiffy

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2022, 11:33:31 am »
great advice from all concerned - good read about the 10 dyno mule combos - some significant variation in power.

LOL'd about the FMX...
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Offline barnett468

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2022, 01:00:49 pm »
Barnett I have a vac sec on my engine now  :toetapping:
   :therethere:

Try finding a pair of 4v heads now in Australia and if you can they want the same price of a set of alloy edelbrock heads

Well that's what you guys get for not buying more cars from me!

And if I come back to the states I will return your dress you lent me ,but don’t worry I never put it on.
:lmao:

Offline GLENN 70

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Re: Engine Build
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2022, 06:52:57 pm »
Barnett I don’t take my mustang to the track these days , just a cruiser  ,so just a vacuum secondly carb is fine . Still a 11sec car tho  :grin: