Pollution in China

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Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2023, 01:18:47 pm »
Hey all,

John Laws is playing a song at the moment!

“Don’t sell your Saddle “

How true is that!

If you’re a cowboy you can’t exist without your Saddle!

If you’re a Government you can’t exist without your assets!
Power Generation and Power distribution, Mines, Poles and Wires, Harbours, Roads etc.

I’ve been “banging on” about this for thirty years!
IMO, We would be far better off now in This Global Energy Crisis if we contained these assets and grow steadily with the income we are earning!

IEA report Globally 2.4 trillion was spent on Renewable Energy in 2022.
Report:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/07/global-renewable-energy-investment-iea/

Cheers Phil.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 07:05:11 pm by AussiePhil »
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Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2023, 08:20:02 pm »
Just one more, then I’ll go away.

European Wind Drought.

https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/europe-wind-drought/

Cheers Phil.
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Offline fredm666

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fred

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2023, 09:26:35 pm »
Hey Fred,
I read some of this report and picked up several glaring irregularities.
Firstly it’s by the ABC, then I saw an industry body I’ve never heard of (Sunwiz), so I looked into Sunwiz, it’s a Commercial Solar Consultancy and PV Retailer. Not CSRIO or Independent Body without prejudice or Bias.
Then they talk about a capacity of Megawatts (Mw), In theory I could produce 20,000 Megawatts as they state on a push bike with a generator, But it would take me some time! A lot of time!
A true measurement is Mw/h of Gw/h, and given measurement (w) over and given time (hr), this may because whoever wrote this report knows nothing about Generation.

Obviously if we do not renew or build new Coal Power Plants it is inevitable this report is true.
But you need huge base load of some kind, Base load refers to the minimum level of power required across a set 24-hour period, primarily from equipment and appliances that consume power at a consistent rate.
At night solar itself cannot be a base load.

This is where Nuclear needs to step in, 10Gw/h minimum in the next ten years.

All rooftop solar systems return electricity within the street grid, the power ie. 230v can’t at the moment be retapped through street step down transformers and it would need to be inverted to a usable voltage, at least 11,000 volts.
Not sure that is possible!
You would need a combination of step up transformers and step down transformers. (Inverters).

Power stations by memory produce 32Kv then stepped up to 66Kv transmission lines then back to 11Kv distribution.
Voltage has a voltage drop of 3% per 1000Km.

They talk about the uptake of Solar panels but they don’t mention the replacement of existing solar panels and Inverters,
Panels last twenty years but efficiency lowers with age, Inverters only last ten to twelve years.

Look at reputable reports on YouTube like John Stossel, Matt Ferrell

https://youtu.be/U6JpmDqpzQY

https://youtu.be/f7DQ3SgSg0c

https://youtu.be/BW0UNF3UrxA

https://youtu.be/wPGBCGhk0jI

https://youtu.be/xxXlD4e-wTE

https://youtu.be/Jsff3sNDOFc

https://youtu.be/m3hHi4sylxE

One other alternative is where there are existing Coal Fired plants that had extensions planned like Mt Piper in NSW.
It was built with two units with plans to add another two units in the future.

Get ready in the next few years for rolling Electricity Shortage and total blackouts!

Cheers Phil.







If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline fredm666

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2023, 10:52:52 pm »
Hi Phil,
I agree on nuclear, unfortunately nowadays it takes a lot of time to build a nuclear plant, in the near future it would be quicker.
Honestly there is no need for new coal power plants, I believe we can find better alternatives, including battery storages for all these solar panels (night use) and gas plants as back up for peak periods.
Solutions are out there already, we just need competent governments to decide to use them.
fred

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2023, 08:43:08 am »
Hey Fred,

Just to clear up things with everyone, I no longer work and have not worked for some time (ten years) in the Coal Industry or Power Industry and do not stand to make any benefit by my opinions. It is a fascination I have looking into the subject!

Modular Nuclear plants (SMR) has a projected construction time of three to five years, while a large reactor takes six to 12 years. 
It wouldn’t surprise me if there are Asian Companies out there waiting for the Global Energy Crisis to worsen then buying existing Coal Power Plants at rock bottom prices then step in and manufacture Thermo Power (Coal or Small Modular Nuclear) using the existing distribution facilities and making a huge profit because AEMO will be begging for Power at any cost.
This has all been the result of Governments obligating there responsibility to provide basic needs (Electricity, Water, Roads, Gaols etc.) to the nation privatising assets to Companies who like all Companies want to make money for shareholders. This is for a quick rush of money from the sale of assets is so that Government can say we did this, but in the long term it is detrimental.

Electricity needs in remote locations are usually small and variable, making them suitable for a smaller plant. The smaller size may also reduce the need for a grid to distribute their output.
This could have been done in Tasmania and South Australia taking them off the Eastern Grid saving money on the Basslink project $875 million. (It’s a distribution cost not a production of Power)
A report boasted Tasmania stood alone supplying enough Power for their State using Solar, wind and Hydro, it you look at AEMO, It hardly doesn’t rely on Basslink. Go to AEMO dispatch overview and you can see how power is distributed state to state and incredibly at present Tasmania is standing alone, hahaha. Update, just checked again 15 minutes later it’s drawing 218Mw.

Rooftop Solar systems at the moment can’t be measured due to the inability to Re-tap through the street substation, the output is a guesstimate, these panels get dirty, age, the inverter may not supply as new or shutdown without you knowing, (the only way is to regularly check your inverter is working) and do supply less than new. An inverter will just switch to grid power and you wil be non the wiser until you get your next power bill.
So, All Rooftop Solars systems need to be connected through smart meters connected through the internet to AEMO as a correct measure.
I had Solar on my last house, it was only 18 months I sold the house and within a week the realtor rang me about it not working, luckily it was the inverter and was under warranty.
My new house has a white colorbond roof (Surfmist) and there is no way I’m going to put up ugly black panels, jutting out at the ends looking like old roof racks on a new car.
We are in a new development and not many new houses have Solar. I think the hype is over!

At the moment Battery Storage is only useful for non renewable sources as the renewables are flat out through the day supplying day power to store overnight power. Wallerwang ex Power Station is a great location to store excess power from Mount Piper Power Station which is misused as Base load power.

Cheers Phil.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 08:50:33 am by AussiePhil »
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Offline Tang67

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2023, 03:55:01 pm »
It always makes me shudder when the 'nuclear' option is mentioned - can’t believe how ill-informed/miss informed many are about nuclear energy. People need to stop thinking along the lines of one type of generation – that’s old school thinking - there are many flavours that we in Oz are lucky to have available: coal, natural gas, thermal, abundant wind and solar opportunities, currently untouched tidal options, hydro, etc. They’ll simply be switching on/off at different times of the day and managed that way much the same way it is already done – no biggie.

Simple facts about going nuclear, and why it currently doesn’t make sense for Oz:

1. Small/mobile reactors: they aren’t only inefficient, they produce more waste and have a very short life-cycle compared to the big reactors. So they are very costly to run and then leave highly contaminated, long lived waste

2, Big nuclear: getting a new nuclear power station off the ground has been estimated to take 20 years, and since most only have a life-cycle of 30 years, they are prohibitively expensive to build, maintain, and then create HUGE volumes of contaminated, long lived waste – not only the spent fuel rods, just about every metal, plastic and concrete widget in the place needs to be isolated and/or buried FOREVER. And, the site itself needs to be managed in caretaker mode indefinitely. That’s one of the reasons China is investing in more coal fired power stations.

3. Location and Coolant: Most, but now all, reactors need plentiful supplies of water or some other coolant, and need to be built near populated areas to avoid loss – Australia is a dry continent. Using sea water creates other issues. Then, try to pick a place on the Eastern Seaboard where a coastal community will agree to one being built – good luck with that. Also, we are known world-wide for having ‘clean & green’ crops and seafood … see that go out the window for trade.) Then there is always the looming prospect of New Zealand going ‘pop’ and we get the resultant tsunami … just like Fukushima.

4. Infrastructure – nuclear energy was a by-product of the Manhattan Project. In a somewhat unique scenario, they had this thing and needed to find a use for it = ‘Hey Mr Oppenheimer, this stuff will heat water really quickly, reckon we just came up with a use for it other than blowing big holes in the ground!’ Jokes aside, the countries involved in the Atomic/Nuclear industry have a history going back to the 1940’s, and the dirty, dangerous legacy that goes with it. To set up that type of full scale industry here is not only ridiculously expensive, it would pollute pristine environments for little to no net gain. The major problem is with our Politicians being wined & dined by the USA/UK/French fraternity just so they can make money at our extreme expense - like the coal lobby.

5. Transparency: the nuclear industry is anything but transparent and honest. In democratic, advanced economy countries, nuclear energy should be managed and operated by the Federal Government. History has shown, private companies cannot be trusted with it, particularly when their sole function in life is to cut corners and make money. Most exist because they are highly subsidised by their Governments.

6. Besides the monetary, health, and environmental costs, nuclear energy is NOT carbon neutral – there are no free lunches: mine operations and the machinery needed to dig uranium out of the ground, transport it to a processing plant to create yellow cake and then into rods for the reactor. It all takes fossil fuels, large volumes of water, and ironically huge volumes of electricity, AND THEN, creates enormous volumes of low/medium/high radioactive waste that then needs to be transported somewhere for dumping – yes, it is effectively dumping crap into a deep hole and hope it doesn’t get disturbed for millennia.

7. Cost and Efficiency: a recent article in the Financial Review, about a CSIRO report, found: ‘… a small reactor typically costs as much as $16,000 per kilowatt-hour, 50 to 100 per cent more than large-scale nuclear. By contrast, wind and solar come in under $2000 per kilowatt-hour …’. So, nuclear is more than 8X expensive and then leaves a filthy legacy for future generations. Improvements in technology for wind/solar and others are happening almost on a monthly basis, increasing generation and storage/capacity.

8. Fusion energy: optimistic at best. So far, pie in the sky.


If it comes to burning coal or going nuclear, I’ll take coal every time, breakfast, lunch and dinner.

The future of power generation in Oz will simply be a mix of things (sans nuclear), with an ever decreasing reliance on coal and gas. If they ever create so-called ‘clean coal’ then we’re gonna be extremely lucky!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 04:44:55 pm by Tang67 »

Offline fredm666

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2023, 04:14:17 pm »
Thanks Phil and Tang for sharing these info, very interesting points of view  :thumb:
fred

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2023, 09:09:54 pm »
Hey tang and Fred,
Of course my first choice would be clean coal production.
But in this Green climate it’s unmentionable.
An earlier post was about dirty dust belching Coal power Stations, we are far from the grate fed Power Stations like Balmain, Whitebay and early Wangi Wangi.
All modern Coal Fired Power Stations use pulverised coal for an instant clean burn and use precipitators (extraction of fly ash).
That is a byproduct that causes concern, in the old days with bag precipitators it would be blended with cement products etc. and used in toothpaste. Now the slurry is pumped into valleys and set to dry.
The coal that Mt Piper has been receiving for a few years has been rubbish and should’ve been blended better with very good Clarence coal.
It’s amazing Asian and Indian Power Station freight coal from Australia and we can’t freight it from Ulan area and make a profit.
But, the Global Energy Crisis hasn’t hit as hard as it will.

I’m just giving my view that Solar and Wind don’t have a chance of delivering what we need.

Again the previous Governments are at fault! And we shouldn’t even be having these discussions.
They don’t seem to be to concerned about it like we are.

I was unaware of the problems you have brought up about Nuclear, but I will look into it.
The water situation should be addressed by harvesting, we’ve just had floods everywhere and no one talks about capturing it to reuse. For heavens sake we can’t lift Warragamba dam wall.

I heard a little about tidal but thought it dropped of the earth, I now see some on YouTube, I’ll watch later.
Once again transmission lines would be a consideration.

We should not be all forced to put Solar panels on our houses to pull the previous Governments out of the muck they got as into. They said populate or perish, dry continent, how can that work.

My Solar experience has been that successful.

Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Falling off the Cliff
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2023, 10:52:44 pm »
Hey,
Just gets regurgitated and those who can do something don’t do anything and seem not to care!

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6321909007112

Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Fat returns.
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2023, 11:08:24 pm »
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline fredm666

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fred

Offline AussiePhil

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Solar winter to summer variance.
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2023, 07:44:10 am »
Hey all,

I found this off the web interesting,

In Sydney and Perth, summer days are only around 14 hours long, although winter days last for 10 hours. In tropical Australia, the length of the day is close to 12 hours all year around.

It is 7.30 am at the moment at the start of Autumn and Solar from AEMO is 1%.
But, if you look on AEMO at the variance over 12 months Solar does not dramatically increase / decrease through winter to summer.

Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2023, 09:09:36 pm »
Hey All,
You must find this interesting, otherwise you won’t clicked on this.

Two more interesting talks!

This one talks about,
Slave labour Congo required rare minerals!
When you plug you’re EV or device in?
Fossil fuels and synthetic fuels.
Clayton talks about Scrubbers (passing the exhaust gasses through water and detergent) which is very impractical.
The next useless thing is particle filters trapping the nitrates (NO2) into a mass, this mass is dangerous in itself, localising it in the filter and then the need to dispose it safety and ridiculously impractical.
Both used more so in large Diesel fleets.


https://youtu.be/1J61TPKNlls

Vulnerable countries like the Congo, East Africa and Micronesia and Ukraine have high volumes of minerals like lithium, cobalt etc, and the countries are also have high levels of corruption or as Ukraine at war.
These countries can dig it up but can not process it, China can, the rest of the world must counteract this.
World instability!
This lady has a strong accent so listen closely!


https://youtu.be/za6dE5JrNB0


Also we (Or Greenies) use the general term is “SAVING THE PLANET”
No the planet will survive after we’ve all died, the term should if anything say “SAVING OR MAINTAINING CIVILISATION AS LONG AS WE ARE ALLOWED BY THE EARTH AND THE UNIVERSE”.
The planet will reset itself when we’re all gone, inevitably!

I agree we need to save Civilisation as long as we can but we can’t control forces of the Universe!

Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Pollution in China - Australian Coal is King!
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2023, 01:52:04 pm »
Hi all,
You’re back again!

https://youtu.be/uGzCQZUrs2k

Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline fredm666

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2023, 12:53:35 pm »
Sourcing minerals for electric cars from decent countries has always been an issue, and it will be for the foreseeable future.
Also in European countries or Australia or US having an electric car is not so "green", as you need to drive 100,000km or more to be able to offset the production of the car itself, assuming you can charge the car with renewable energy only.

These days Europe is considering using nuclear power again to be able to transition to renewable in the future, also including small reactors. If you understand italian here is an article: https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2023/03/16/net-zero-industry-act-ce-anche-il-nucleare-nella-proposta-ue-sui-fondi-allenergia-pulita-via-libera-ai-reattori-di-piccole-dimensioni/7099266/

It will be interesting how this will work with Italy, as they banned any nuclear after Chernobyl. Back then there were 3 nuclear power plants active, which have been closed after the referendum (referendum based on fear). Of course the ban includes nuclear weapons, but interestingly enough Italy has American nuclear weapons on its soil, stored in US military bases. So Italy is acting against its on Constitution.
Another funny fact is that Italy imports nuclear energy from France and there are nuclear plants around Italian borders with France, Slovenia and Switzerland.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 03:49:25 pm by fredm666 »
fred

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2023, 02:42:21 pm »
Thumbs up Fred!

My son takes delivery of a Tesla soon.
I can’t talk him out of it and it’s driving me crazy or crazier.
I’m betting his wife and kids will get car sick in it!
There are plenty of Hybrids I’ve recommended but na!
Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline fredm666

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2023, 04:00:02 pm »
I believe most of the Tesla drivers have that car because it's fashion and almost a status symbol, not because they care about the environment.
Just to be clear, I'm not judging Tesla or other electric cars owners, they can buy whatever they please; but I don't accept when they say "I buy an electric car because I'm green" and then they produce a ridiculous amount of waste at home and/or buy fast-fashion crap.
fred

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2023, 04:32:11 pm »
Hey Fred,
Yep, couldn’t say it Better myself.
Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline AussiePhil

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If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline fredm666

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fred

Offline kowalski

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2023, 01:47:21 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

Never, ever does anyone talk about the dust to dust cost of these things. Hint, it's astronomical!
Especially compared to my maintained, 58 year old Mustang that's yet to see it second "dust".
As an aside, I used to do a lot of work in China. Even in the regions, you could not even go for a run outside in the early hours of the morning without getting into breathing difficulty.....

Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2023, 10:37:25 am »
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

Never, ever does anyone talk about the dust to dust cost of these things. Hint, it's astronomical!
Especially compared to my maintained, 58 year old Mustang that's yet to see it second "dust".
As an aside, I used to do a lot of work in China. Even in the regions, you could not even go for a run outside in the early hours of the morning without getting into breathing difficulty.....

Hey, thanks for your input,

I grew up in Lithgow, NSW. Back during the settlement of Lithgow coal, copper ore, iron ore was discovered and Lithgow had copper production in 1874 and iron and steel production (first in Australia) in 1886 to 1928.
With this the Sulfur in this production killed most of the landscape trees and vegetation.
Without this copper, steel, iron and cement from nearby Portland much of Sydney would not exist!
These industries died out due to the lack of local ore, transport was at its infancy.
Many would joke that’s not a bad thing, hahaha!
The hills around the valley were bare of vegetation, you can see from old photos.
Recently coal fires and boilers (Donkeys) in the area were replaced by wood heaters and better gas heating and gas hot water.
One hundred years after this the trees and vegetation has grown back as before!

My wife grew up near Wollongong, the Steel Works was much improved and grew with time.
In the 1980’s Wollongong was a dirty town.
But now days it is a beautiful city, with magical beaches.

And I bet others have the same story about Newcastle and other areas!
Newcastle harbour and beaches are of the best.
Unfortunately Newcastle iron and steel did not survive to build on environmental developments?

So this shows we (Australians) have improved its effect on the environment and we need to pressure others to clean up their own backyard.

One thing though, our roadsides, rivers and streets are cluttered with tins, bottles, shopping trolleys and fast food rappers from lazy bastards, particularly shopping trolleys in our rivers, little minds must get a kick out of being stupid!

Unfortunately a lot of industries died off before they could benefit from better technologies.

Cheers Phil


« Last Edit: June 09, 2023, 09:17:27 am by AussiePhil »
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
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Offline AussiePhil

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Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2023, 03:39:13 pm »
Hey all,
Talk around Bathurst and Oberon is the forestry commission is investigating wind farms in with the Pine plantations in the hills around Oberon.

What industries are in Oberon?
Particleboard, MDF and melamine manufacturing facility. Borg's Oberon facilities boast Australia's newest and largest particleboard line and pine harvesting through Australian Panels and Plantation Pine Products.

So there would need to be much clearing (reducing forested Pine) increasing fire risk and the usual blight on the landscape, increasing noise pollution, neighbourhood restlessness, Sun / Shade flicker on households.
Let’s hope commonsense prevails!

Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!

Offline AussiePhil

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  • Name: Phil
  • Car: 68 Coupe
Re: Pollution in China
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2023, 06:40:05 pm »
Hey all,
Apparently China and India are not the only polluters!

https://youtube.com/shorts/2TY_5zu7eGE?feature=share

Cheers Phil.
If you've never buggered anything you've never done anything!
But if you've buggered a lot maybe you're not very good at it!

Two for one is good but four for two is better!