Pollution in China

[AussiePhil]

Hey all,
In a previous post Fred and got into a friendly discussion about Climate Change and Australias need to save the World!(my words)

But we live in a beautiful clean country now! (not so much 1890 to 1960’s)
We need to keep it that way!

We add little to Climate Change and the pollution in the world.

Climate Change in Australia is a Business and many benefit from it, Scarring the pants off old people and Brainwashing school chrildren.

Just go to YouTube and look up for yourself, China Pollution - India Pollution.

And just see how we are going! You will be shocked!

Cheers Phil.

[AussiePhil]

Hey all,

I hope you have taken the time to watch some of these videos.

Now it’s mandated that not fossil fuel powered cars will be made after 2035?

So we go home with our EV’s and plug them into our power grid Powered at night by Black Coal, Brown Coal, Hydro, Gas and a bit of wind! How is that Green!

Look at Australian Energy Market Watch AEMO web site, press on ENERGY MIX, then press where it says CURRENT and use the drop down box to see 24hr, 48hr, 3m and 12m see how Green Power is going at the Moment.

Do you think these poor struggling people in these third world countries will be able to afford these.

Once again we take the pain for the world pollution problems!

The best YouTube I’ve watched is by VICE, “THE DEVASTATING EFFECTS OF POLLUTION IN CHINA” 1&2.

Cheers Phil.

[fredm666]

https://www.worldometers.info/

interesting numbers on this website, they should be fairly accurate.

[pmb0186]

Interesting topic.
from what I understand the carbon produced from the manufacture of typical new car is equivalent to carbon emitted in 10 years of tail pipe emissions.
If the life of a modern car is 20 years
I drive a 66 Austin Healey sprite in effect a recycled car so if I drive that car for 20 years and get 9lt per 100km then the new car owner would have to achieve 4.5lt per 100km to compete.
I'm an accidental environmentalist.

[AussiePhil]

Interesting topic.
from what I understand the carbon produced from the manufacture of typical new car is equivalent to carbon emitted in 10 years of tail pipe emissions.
If the life of a modern car is 20 years
I drive a 66 Austin Healey sprite in effect a recycled car so if I drive that car for 20 years and get 9lt per 100km then the new car owner would have to achieve 4.5lt per 100km to compete.
I'm an accidental environmentalist.

Hey Pete,
Well done, I’m glad your Austin Healey Sprite didn’t end up on the scrap heap like some would like.

I really hate the comparison CO2 per capita. The data out of some countries can not be Trusted.
CO2 per capita per square kilometre or mile is a better indicator of peoples living conditions.

For example, the three big powerhouses (production) and Australia!

8.10 tons of CO2 per capita where the population is 153 per square kilometre for China increasing CO2 emissions

1.92 tons of CO2 per capita where the population is 464 per square kilometre for India increasing CO2 emissions.

13.68 tons of CO2 per capita where the population is 36 per square kilometre for United States of America declining CO2 emissions.

15.48 tons of CO2 per capita where the population is 3.3 per square kilometre for Australia declining CO2 emissions.
IMO I think we may over represent our figures.

Out of these countries where would you rather live and which countries do you think are having a go at Emissions Control.

CO2 emissions per capita of China rose by 1.22 % from 8.10 tons of CO2 per capita in 2019 to 8.20 tons of CO2 per capita in 2020. Since the 0.38 % decline in 2016, CO2 emissions per capita leapt by 7.23 % in 2020.
Chinas population is in 48% of its land mass so the pollution effects on its people may be double what is reported!

In 2020, CO2 emissions per capita for India was 1.74 tons of CO2 per capita. Between 1971 and 2020, CO2 emissions per capita of India grew substantially from 0.38 to 1.74 tons of CO2 per capita rising at an increasing annual rate that reached a maximum of 9.83% in 2009 and then decreased to -6.91% in 2020.

Who is the biggest polluter per capita?

In recent years, China has accelerated past the United States and is the biggest polluter in absolute terms, (which is unsurprising given China's population and fast economic growth. India is also catching up.

A data can be Cherry Picked (Made to look better) to suit their cause!

It is very hard to get consistent data results across the internet!

Cheers Phil

[AussiePhil]

Hey All,
Thought I’d continue talk about Australia’s Energy production.
Currently there are 2077 absolutely massive wind turbines in operation in Australia.
And at this exact moment they are producing 2% to Australia’s Energy.
Well done!
Cheers Phil.

[Clubman7]

Yeah we need more to help get off the fossil fuel train, but we will get there.

[Tang67]

Big problems with calculating and comparing pollution levels though. For example, Developed Countries off-shore its pollution by having stuff made in Developing Countries like China, India, Bangladesh, etc. So all the stuff we buy is manufactured elsewhere, but the pollution caused by the manufacturing processes is really 'ours'.

The figures would look different if we made everything we use here in Oz.

As for environmental poisoning of rivers, land and water tables in those countries, that's due to slack laws and corrupt governments. Though, we have PLENTY of similar comparison in Australia too.

[AussiePhil]

Hey all,
Must be windy at the moment, wind generation up to 4%.
Well done!
Cheers Phil.

[fredm666]

Here some other interesting numbers:
https://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/resources/resources-hub/clean-energy-australia-report
https://www.energy.gov.au/data/renewables

[AussiePhil]

Hey All,
Coal Powered Electricity Generators hate the uncertainty of solar and especially wind production. Up or none.
Like your car engine there is a sweet spot, say 90kph. 120kpm revving a little harder, poor fuel economy, more heat, more wear, tyres get hotter and wear more etc. 80kph you’ll have to labour it on hills or go back a gear, more wear on the clutch and throw out bearings, gearbox third gear etc. and poor fuel economy!
Running a steam powered turbine/generator is just the same. Pulverised mills, condenser pumps, induction and exhaust fans need to run harder, added fuel causes ash on the boiler tubes, goes on and on.
Running them out of this sweet spot is only deteriorating them faster.
Generators may have to pull a unit offline and slowly rotate the long shafts to keep then straight and then go back online later in the day, time and money consuming!
Coalmines may be told by the Generators, we have enough coal this week so you’ll have to stockpile your coal (expensive dropping it on the ground and then reloading it) or slow production, they do you know, contracts are on a monthly basis, detrimental to Longwall Faces, basically roof weight moving from behind the supports to in front of the supports causing Face, Maingate and Tailgate collapses. Very dangerous! To the point the total longwall face may have to be stopped, supported and a new face cut.
If that would happen, tens of millions of dollars would be lost and it’s an extremely dangerous occurrence.

No wonder Coalmines can’t get Capital Investment.

Just remember everything you have is because of coal, gas and petroleum.

Your Car body, Engine block, electrical, exhaust system, vinyl seats, wheels and tyres, dash pads and upholstery.
Your house, Bricks, concrete, steel girders, the roof, tin or tiles, copper wires, gutters and pvc pipes.

Don’t give up on Coal yet, Yet till we go nuclear, because Solar, Wind and Hydro won’t sustain us!

Cheers Phil.

[Clubman7]

As with all technologies something better always comes along.
Winds of change are blowing.
Coal is dead.
Zero emission power generation is the present and the future.
Liberal government held us back for too long with the coal industry in their pockets.

[AussiePhil]

As with all technologies something better always comes along.
Winds of change are blowing.
Coal is dead.
Zero emission power generation is the present and the future.
Liberal government held us back for too long with the coal industry in their pockets.

Hey Brett,
Sorry to disagree with you.
I worked in both Electricity Generation and Coal Mining.
Technologies are far away to stand alone without Coal. (Not in our, our children’s or grandchildren’s lives), unless we build Nuclear Generators with 15,000Mwh capacity within the next ten years, that is impossible.
Look at the AEMO web site you’ll see the results, go to fuel mix, Current, 24Hr, 48Hr, 3 Months and 12 Months.
And then think how little renewables contribute and remember Black and Brown Coal and Gas production is strangled and limited to make up the deficit of what we need. They could happily produce much more, but renewables are flat out producing what they do.
Liberal government have never been in the coal industries pocket, it’s totally reverse, Labour started as the workers Party!
Without coal we wouldn’t have had the Industrial Revolution.

A saying used by Coal miners for at least one hundred years is “Coal is King”

My Great Grandfather was brought out for the UK in 1878 to help set up State Owned Coal Mining.
My Great Grandfather, Grandfather and my Father all worked at the same Pit.
It supplied controlled price coal to the Railways, Steel and Copper production and household electricity.

Without coal you would not now have the technologies to go to the next step, mainly Nuclear with a mix of pretend power production (Wind and Solar).

I’m happy to continue our friendly different banter.

Cheers Phil.

[Clubman7]

Yeah I thought you might of worked in the coal industry.
And of course you have a lot of knowledge on the generating industry and how the current system operates.
I admit that we are grounded in a coal based generating environment currently and that there is going to have to be a generational shift in thinking to advance our options in generating power without producing C02.
To not be forward thinking though isn’t an option and ridiculing small increases in cleanly generated electricity when that small number already has had an effect of reduced carbon output.
I believe that’s why Premier Andrews is starting the State electricity commission again in Victoria to make sure investment is provided by the government to introduce new infrastructure where the private sector cant yet justify the investment required.
Hey it’s a mine field. The challenges are huge, but the way forward is there.
Holding it up are people scared of change, and not accepting their part in the pollution created when they turn power on.
The worst part currently is the next twenty years where the transition occurs and the private sector start shutting down their privately owned generators that governments sold off in the nineties, due to rising pressure on companies creating pollution, and say well find your own power now, we’re out. But that’s a whole different political story.
I was reading Tasmania has already had 100% production of renewable electricity due to the massive amount of hydro generation they have, topped up with solar and wind farms.

[Clubman7]

This is from the Age newspaper.

“Electricity generation accounts for half of Victoria’s annual emissions, but the state’s three remaining coal-fired power plants are not counted individually under the safeguard mechanism.”

Aging infrastructure and lack of investment.
I doubt very much anyone will be building a new coal generation plant now.

[Clubman7]

Thanks for your message Phil.
Hard to convey a sense of mood when typing out a message, but I respect your experience, knowledge, and opinion on what will be a difficult transition to having reliable base load power from renewable energy.
Like you said, coal is stable and has the ability to reliably maintain supply at all times and we need to rely on it for a while yet.
Unless the company you work for had a mechanical failure after doing maintenance on the bucket wheel drive assembly
 of one of the larger diggers in Loy Yang mine.
Luckily we weren’t to blame as a sub assembly gearbox was supplied by the mine, with contaminated material in the oil galleries.
There was much fun with them using front end loaders day and night to keep coal up to the generators.
Anyways, different time.
There are so many machinations to the argument that even from the outside it is impossible to forecast what direction the country will go in.
There will be the requirements that we will actually need and then there will be what we will be delivered.
Governments are great at telling us what’s required from behind a desk.
I’m just looking forward to a time where we don’t have to produce half of the states pollution to generate electricity.
Then we will have to stop buying cheaply made goods from countries doing nothing to help reduce emissions.

[AussiePhil]

Big problems with calculating and comparing pollution levels though. For example, Developed Countries off-shore its pollution by having stuff made in Developing Countries like China, India, Bangladesh, etc. So all the stuff we buy is manufactured elsewhere, but the pollution caused by the manufacturing processes is really 'ours'.

The figures would look different if we made everything we use here in Oz.

As for environmental poisoning of rivers, land and water tables in those countries, that's due to slack laws and corrupt governments. Though, we have PLENTY of similar comparison in Australia too.

Hey Tang67,

Good point about the stuff we buy, pollution really being ours, but if it was a gift so.
But it’s not a gift it’s an exchange of goods, another way at looking at it, our money had a pollution element to it and there cars we buy have a bigger pollution element.
I don’t have a car made in any of these countries!
Just got to stop buying cheap Chinese rubbish plastic toys from $2 shops would start.

It is a long time tradition that these people pollute their rivers, their streets are polluted because they have grown up that way, monsoons and heavy rains wash this into streams and rivers.
Regardless of industry!

Cheers Phil.

[AussiePhil]

Hey Brett,
Your comment about Tasmania Hydro and wind must be wrong.

Although this was a comment I found on the net, Wrong!

Is Tasmania self sufficient in electricity?

We are now the first Australian state (and one of few places globally) to achieve 100 per cent renewable electricity generation. That means our island will make enough clean power to meet all of our current electricity needs.

Does Tasmania get power from Victoria?

The Basslink electricity interconnector is a 370 km (230 mi) 500 MW (670,000 hp) high-voltage direct current (HVDC) cable linking the electricity grids of the states of Victoria and Tasmania in Australia, crossing Bass Strait, connecting the Loy Yang Power Station, Victoria on the Australian mainland to ...

Current demand and price at 10pm Monday 20th Feb.
TASMANIA
PRICE $122.19
DEMAND 1193 VS GENERATION 746

And at the moment NSW is the cheapest power followed by QLD.
One very interesting thing on AEMO you can go to Dispatch Overview and you can see which states are feeding other states.
NSW has the highest demand typically.
VIC is currently supplying a stack of power to Tasmania, a bit to SA and a bit to NSW. QLD also supplying a bit to NSW.
Very interesting.

Cheers Phil.

[Clubman7]

Hi Phil.
News story says there will be power shortages due closing of coal fired stations and slow investment in renewables causing power shortages in some states by 2027.
Hit on the head with the obvious plank.

[Clubman7]

Reading a report on Tasmanian energy production.
Bass link is a two way connector so power generation is bidirectional between the mainland and Tasmania.
Year 2019/2020 had a power export from Tasmania of 1376 Gwh and an import amount of 867 Gwh.
Excess power produced by mainly hydro generation through cooler months exported to mainland, while reduced hydro generation through drier months supplemented by mainland gebpnerated power, which is from Loy Yang in Victoria.
https://www.economicregulator.tas.gov.au/Documents/Energy%20in%20Tasmania%20Report%202019-20.pdf

[AussiePhil]

Hi Phil.
News story says there will be power shortages due closing of coal fired stations and slow investment in renewables causing power shortages in some states by 2027.
Hit on the head with the obvious plank.

Yes, apparently last night it very close production and demand.
Comalco Aluminium Tomago is a massive user.

https://www.afr.com/politics/newcastles-tomago-smelter-braces-for-possible-catastrophe-20170210-gua1l4

Very political selling off power assets, amazingly Queensland that majority own assets are doing better than those States totally or partially sold off.

Cheers Phil.

[Tang67]

Look at the AEMO web site you’ll see the results, go to fuel mix, Current, 24Hr, 48Hr, 3 Months and 12 Months.
And then think how little renewables contribute and remember Black and Brown Coal and Gas production is strangled and limited to make up the deficit of what we need. They could happily produce much more, but renewables are flat out producing what they do.

Had a look at that website.

Suggest navigating to the data dashboard 'Renewable Penetration' tab.

Based on that, I wouldn't be investing in coal or LNG projects at least for domestic power generation purposes, and definitely wouldn't want kids to go into that sector for job security - coal and LNG is quickly becoming a niche market e.g. metallurgical coal and power generation for developing/emerging countries and those with few natural resources.

Many companies are divesting into other markets because of shareholder sentiment i.e. environmental issues and to accelerate the development of alternative energy. So, it's likely it'll be just a ticking over of existing mines to produce what is needed ... subject to political interference of course ... the catchphrase: 'to maintain employment'.

To be honest, coal mining has a history of pissing people off: chewing up productive farmland, killing river and lake systems, public and private land subsidence, coal dust residue, tailing dams, etc.

The aforementioned 'developing/emerging countries and those with few natural resources' are also critical that new technology isn't given to them - they'd also prefer not to use coal for power generation because of historic air quality/health issues, etc.

If I were in coal mining, it would be a dash for the door to get a hard rock mining job: that'll continue to grow because of the need for minerals and rare-earths. (Had a mate who worked in coal mines and made the switch decades ago, after a while it did his head in because the hard rock ones weren't supported by as many massive anchors and mesh like the coal mines. Eventually it got the better of him and he went back to coal mining! ) Old horse new tricks!

Based on that dashboard, there's a BIG untapped potential for biomass (gas) e.g. every sewage treatment plant could produce 24/7 energy.

Better to have a lot of redundancy in power supplies than all the eggs in one basket.

[AussiePhil]

Had a look at that website.

Suggest navigating to the data dashboard 'Renewable Penetration' tab.

Funny how “Renewable Penetration” figures which are “best ever” are far different to the “Fuel Mix” tab for twelve mouths, Solar 6% and Wind 14% Engery Produced. (Not Growth)
'Renewable Penetration' growth of 0.2% and 3.9%.
And Fuel Mix was for ONE DAY ONLY Sat, 11 February, 2023, 13:30.
Doctored figures showing a one off occasion.

I also see an inconsistency comparing the two, one measure is Megawatt and the other is Megawatt per hour.



https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/australian-coal-back-in-demand-in-china-20230227-p5cnvv.html

China building coal fired power stations
China is Currently Building Over Half of The World's New Coal-based Power Plants. In 2021, China began building 33 gigawatts of coal-based power generation, according to the Helsinki-based Center for Research on Energy and Clean Air (CREA)

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/8101094/chinas-new-coal-power-plant-approvals-surge-in-2022/

Once again we need 15,000Mwh of Nuclear Power in ten years the rate of Coal fired Power Stations are deteriorating at present! As there is no Investment presently.

Renewable energy will not be stand alone for a long time? Who knows? and we will never produce Steel or Aluminium ever again. Don’t worry about that China would love our Coal and Ores and send it back to us.

It’s too late to panic!

Cheers Phil.

[AussiePhil]

Hey all,
Coal is not yet dead.
Great news for the Economy! Great royalties flowing back into Australia, great Job opportunities!
Unfortunately it’s not going to help Australia’s Energy Crisis!
And best of all Greenies are going ballistic!

NSW will consider allowing eight new coal mines and expansions this year with the potential to produce millions of tonnes of green house gas emissions once the coal is burnt, according to advocacy group Lock The Gate.

Climate activists say approving any new coal mining projects will undermine NSW's emissions targets.

The largest of the expansions under consideration is the jointly-owned Glencore and Yancoal open cut mine in the NSW Upper Hunter Valley, 24km north-west of Singleton.

If granted permission to continue mining operations until 2050, the project could be responsible for 1.2 billion tonnes of CO2 emissions, doubling current direct output.

Lock the Gate Alliance NSW coordinator Nic Clyde said the government's strategy for approving new coal mining projects had fatally undermined its emissions targets.

"NSW is now staring down the barrel of the biggest climate bomb from coal mine expansions since the Paris Agreement - putting our future at risk," Mr Clyde said.

"When every other sector in the NSW economy is doing their bit to start reducing emissions to address climate change, the coal and gas sector is running in the opposite direction."

All new mining proposals and expansions were assessed against the government's target to reduce emissions by 70 per cent by 2035, as well as impact on the surrounding environment and community, a spokeswoman for the Department of Planning and Environment said.

"This comprehensive assessment considers government policy, community feedback and advice from government agencies, as well as independent experts as required," the spokeswoman said.

According to a spokeswoman for Planning Minister Anthony Roberts, NSW was on track to halve emissions by 2030 compared to 2005 levels.

A Labor spokesman said the party supported the NSW Independent Planning Commission deciding on significant development applications in cases including when there is considerable community opposition.

"There is an independent process to assess all resources proposals, which we support," the spokesman said.

Greens MP Sue Higginson said it was "beyond comprehension" for NSW to be approving coal mine expansions when all major parties have a net zero target for emissions.

"Labor and the Liberals do not consider the emissions of coal that has been exported for burning overseas, rather they only consider the direct emissions of coal that is mined and burned domestically," she said.

"It is a dangerous perspective when we consider that carbon dioxide emitted by Indian power plants that are burning Australian coal are still contributing to the climate crisis."

Cheers Phil.

[jiffy]

so - if the worlds wants countries to move to renewable energy, then they have to make it commercially attractive.
Otherwise, people will continue to buy coal for power gen.
If the world wants us to stop selling coal to countries who want to buy it, then they should compensate us.

Can't have your cake and eat it all the time.