69 428 SCJ

[Herman]

Concours Judging certainly brings up a lot of issues and interesting debates

[barnett468]

Concours Judging certainly brings up a lot of issues and interesting debates

yeah, but here's the deal . either parts are factory correct or they are not . it is black and white and there is nothing to debate . so their may sometimes be discussions as to whether the shock tower caps were painted or natural from this factory etc and there certainly were differences like that from factory to factory or from certain time frames at the same factory, however, i don't see how one could debate which reproduction coil decal might be more correct when they never came with a decal etc . there is also nothing to debate about wrong tires or clear coat on the paint or missing parts or shiny trim rings because these types of things are cast in stone and well known.

so lets say you have that car in the thoroughbred class which it souldnt be in and you have another car in that class that does have all the corrct pieces, is that really fair to the guy that spent all that extra money and time making his car far more correct.

i dont give a hoot about these shows and never really did  i have had several USA MCA gold award cars and thoroughbred cars but they didn't do much for me . unlike a lot of these show people, i dont have an ego to satisfy and prove i spent way more on a car i can't drive than some other guy . i would rather be out beating the crap out of it than standing in the hot sun with a feather duster trying to keep the tires clean so they won't take any points off.

.

[Herman]

I can understand where you are coming from with the incorrect item/finishes but these may only incur a 1/2 point deduction each which isn't huge when consider the score is out of 1000 for Original & Thoroughbred Concours judging. 

Myself, I enjoy the concours judging side of things as I want to find out what has been changed over the years or what's correct for my car/s.  Whilst I am getting something at end the end for all the effort that's been put in , that's not my main focus.  By the way you have to have pretty think skin to do it as it can be very frustrating at times due to the various amount of correct/misinformation out there & differences in opinions.

[barnett468]

I can understand where you are coming from with the incorrect item/finishes but these may only incur a 1/2 point deduction each which isn't huge when consider the score is out of 1000 for Original & Thoroughbred Concours judging. 

Myself, I enjoy the concours judging side of things as I want to find out what has been changed over the years or what's correct for my car/s.  Whilst I am getting something at end the end for all the effort that's been put in , that's not my main focus.  By the way you have to have pretty think skin to do it as it can be very frustrating at times.

I don't do what is considered Concours restorations any more . It's just not fun for me and it doesn't really pay off.

Yes the deductions are not much for some of the things, but if that car and a true Concours car of the same type were for sale for the same price, it's a no brainer which one I would buy.

Also, if you had a true Concours car and that other car was in the same class and got the same award, wouldn't you be pretty pissed off?.

On the cars I would do, I would occasionally buy the original factory vinyl and have TMI sew the seats up and I would basically have Concours, NOS factory seat covers . On the Mach 1 cars, if the clock was broken I would have it repaired with the original ticking movement instead off the smooth quartz movement so it was Concours correct.

I would send the dash bezels out to get "rechromed" which costs a boat load of money.

They would have the correct date coded distributors and rad fans etc.

My friend had several stamps made so the original ink stamps could be reinstalled so I would stamp them with those.
.

[Herman]

I don't do what is considered Concours restorations any more . It's just not fun for me and it doesn't really pay off.

Yes the deductions are not much for some of the things, but if that car and a true Concours car of the same type were for sale for the same price, it's a no brainer which one I would buy.

Also, if you had a true Concours car and that other car was in the same class and got the same award, wouldn't you be pretty pissed off?.

On the cars i would do, i would occasionally buy the original factory vinyl and have TMI sew the seats up and i would have concours, nos factory seat covers . On the mack 1 cars, if the clock was broken I would have it repaired with the original ticking movement instead off the smooth quartz movement so it was concours correct.

There's only a small percentage who are involved in the Concours side of things but that's just one aspect of the Mustang movement. Remember the Mustang was promoted to be Designed by You and I will never say to anyone that original concours is the only to go.  It's your car, do what you want to do it and enjoy it.   

[JadeMach1]

There's only a small percentage who are involved in the Concours side of things but that's just one aspect of the Mustang movement. Remember the Mustang was promoted to be Designed by You and I will never say to anyone that original concours is the only to go.  It's your car, do what you want to do it and enjoy it. 

I agree Mustang ownership should be a broad church of ideas, owners and cars.

I love seeing concours correct cars at shows but prefer to have a modified right hand drive car for city driving conditions.

[blackthunder1970]

hi
yes i looked at that 69
there is no way that car should be through breed
and could not believe how wrong it was
it had 68 sticker on the master cylinder
no smog
no power steering cooler
the car had no sound deader under the car
wrong floors early style i think i recall
should not have rear spoiler or louver
caution fan sticker should no be there
chrome side quarter vent scoops and mirrors
should have chrome covers on engine not alimun only scj had them in 69
there were so many things wrong that were not factory on that car is was a joke
and i only had a quick look at it
barry

[Herman]

hi
yes i looked at that 69
there is no way that car should be through breed
and could not believe how wrong it was
it had 68 sticker on the master cylinder
no smog
no power steering cooler
the car had no sound deader under the car
wrong floors early style i think i recall
should not have rear spoiler or louver
caution fan sticker should no be there
chrome side quarter vent scoops and mirrors
should have chrome covers on engine not alimun only scj had them in 69
there were so many things wrong that were not factory on that car is was a joke
and i only had a quick look at it
barry

This car has been around a few years and the owner  is well known for doing Original/Thoroughbred concours correct restorations.  We've got to be careful in what's said about the car as some of things you mentioned are options & could have been purchased when the order was processed.  I know it's special order paint car (1of 3 I think) and the chrome vents & mirrors maybe correct & unless we have viewed the Marti report we should give the owner some credit.  After speaking with him at Nationals this area is one has been discussed several times with the various Head Judges.

Like I said in a previous post, there can be many differences of opinions/debates on what's correct or isn't

[blackthunder1970]

 
hi herm
i been playing with 69 70 mach1s since i was thirteen
no 69 come with rear spoilers or louver as it was not a factory option except on the 69 boss 302 and they used a diferent spoiler than a 70 and that car had 70 spoiler
and the louvers i bet are repo as i could as i could not see any numbers on it
no 69 mustang ever came with chrome vents  have seen chrome mirrors on special paint mach 1 s and the scoops were body colour
the master cylinder was wrong should have been black not natural
let alone all the missing engine bits and wrong bits and using the wrong year decals in the engine bay
to me that car is a very nice car but not a throughbreed car 
barry

[69candy]

Kinda off topic, but first car show I took my 69 CJ to (drove it 340kms) was the all ford day in SA, Guy came up to me at the end of the day and said
 " Nice car, I see you have replaced the tail light panel,
Have I?
Yea, you can tell by the way the tail lights stick out an extra couple of mm over the standard ones!!
Really?
Yep
Well you know what I think?
No
From where I sit in the drivers seat, I cannot see it, so I don't give a flying FXCK!!"
He got all shitty and walked off. I built it to drive, some build to show.
Do whatever you want with the cars, they are yours!!!!

[Herman]

Do whatever you want with the cars, they are yours!!!!

couldn't agree more

[mert]

+1

The internet experts that rip a car apart on a few pics, can do as they please.  Funny how someon posts a pic of a really nice car, and the initial replies from some are negative.

I'd bet if, somehow, a 100% just-off-the-line per-factory car was in front of many them they'd pick it apart too! 

[GLENN 70]

I have owned a lot of mustangs over the years and none were 100% factory  specs  and do I care NO ,did I do some of the mods , yes , and do I care NO , do the experts  care , , yes , and do I care what they think NO     I own these mustangs and do want  I want to them . Do I know every factory spec or option on any model mustang NO and do I care NO    but its a learning curve every day which is good . No trailer Queens for me but that's up to ME  .

[barnett468]

+1

The internet experts that rip a car apart on a few pics, can do as they please.  Funny how someon posts a pic of a really nice car, and the initial replies from some are negative.

I'd bet if, somehow, a 100% just-off-the-line per-factory car was in front of many them they'd pick it apart too! 

Well since I have been doing this as a living for 40 years and have seen countess box stock original cars, I am a bit more of an authority than some including you . Herman posted a link to that car and asked for opinions on it . If you don't like people answering questions they are asked or don't like the answers they give to the questions, you can simply report them to the moderators or refrain from saying anything at all if you don't have any useful comment to make . Your relentless and continuous whining about some others is boring and serves no beneficial purpose.

A few members have pm'd me asking to look at photos of a car they were interested in and I pointed out many things they simply didn't see until I mentioned them to them for which they were grateful.

FROM POST 38.

How about this color and standard of restoration, I believe it's a very rare car

http://mustang.org.au/2-uncategorised/26-mustang-nationals-2016.html

Since that car is in the Thoroughbred class, it is obvious that oz has a much lower standard for Thoroughbred cars than the US does because that car would never be in the Thoroughbred class in the US . I know this for a fact because I have had a Thoroughbred car and I know how they are judged here.

The long list of things I mentioned were based on just three photos, therefore, I seriously doubt if the rest of the car would somehow miraculously be correct.

Here is the short version of the MCA rules for a Thoroughbred car taken right from the MCA rulebook.

http://r-amotorsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MCAClassification.2012.pdf

Division IV - Thoroughbred 1964 1/2 –1992

Restored or Original with correct era parts

Date code on the parts used must be on or before the manufacture date of the car

Absolutely no reproduction parts allowed

[mert]

no 69 come with rear spoilers or louver as it was not a factory option

Well. The Ford database would disagree.  Marti's "...by the Numbers" notes 902 fastbacks with the Backlite Louver option.  As there were somewhere around 1500 Boss 302's (IIRC) it would seem these are not those cars...

Uncommon, for sure, (well less than 1% of fastbacks) but an option that per the Ford data collated by Kevin Marti was available in '69.

[GEOFF289]

I think one of the headlight door screws on mine has the phillips head points clocked a few degrees off from where it was when I rolled off the production line so I guess I'm stuffed.

Looks like I'll only be able to get out and drive it.

[barnett468]

Well. The Ford database would disagree.  Marti's "...by the Numbers" notes 902 fastbacks with the Backlite Louver option.  As there were somewhere around 1500 Boss 302's (IIRC) it would seem these are not those cars...

I have no idea what this means, but as far as the Boss 302's go, rear window louvers and rear spoilers were definitely available . I know this for a fact because I had one with original parts and it had the original build sheet duct taped on top of the passenger pedestal . I sold this car to an aussie for what was basically a world record price for the condition it was in and it is currently in oz being finished.

The reason for the high price was because I had already done the undercarriage and body and the body was virtually flawless and better than it was when it rolled off the showroom floor . It also had every single part it rolled off the showroom floor with and the orig carpet and orig seat covers were still useable which means they could be used in a true Thoroughbred class.

I also bought up the last existing PPG paint toners for it that I could find in the US, therefore, this color can never be correctly duplicated again.

I'm guessing the car will be finished sometime early next year and it will without a doubt be one of the finest Boss 302's left in the world.
.

[Pedro]

I think one of the headlight door screws on mine has the phillips head points clocked a few degrees off from where it was when I rolled off the production line so I guess I'm stuffed.

Looks like I'll only be able to get out and drive it.

That gave me a laugh Geoff.

I had my 70 Mach 1 for sale at the Nationals in Qld a few years ago and while I was talking to an interested prospect, these two guys wearing denim jackets covered in Mustang badges wandered up and in loud voices started picking my car to pieces about wrong hose clamps and phillips screws and that it had been repainted in a poor copy of Indian Fire. I interrupted them and asked if they were interested in purchasing my car. When they said no, I told them in an equally loud voice to Fxxx Off!!

My Mach 1 was actually one of 268 painted Chestnut Metallic which was from the Thunderbird paint bin and offered towards the end of the 1970 Mustang model year.

[barnett468]

My Mach 1 was actually one of 268 painted Chestnut Metallic which was from the Thunderbird paint bin and offered towards the end of the 1970 Mustang model year.

That's an incredibly rare color and looks great on there imo.

[barnett468]

.
This is for those that are interested in restoring their car to original or just like to see how they were when they were new . Of course different models and different years would have different markings and even cars of the same year and model sometimes had variations in the markings or color/finish on some of the parts.

Orig parts can cost big dollars . A friend of mine sold a set of NOS shocks to Drew Alcazar for around $1200.00 and a set of original Koni's . That's basically around $2000.00 just for a set of shocks.

The car below was a low mile all orig car that had parts of it restored using all the orig parts and replicating any of the orig markings that were faded or covered up by the resto process.

This is a true US MCA Thoroughbred car and if you find something you think is incorrect, you are mistaken.

The tires are not repo because repo tires are not allowed in that class . The red stamp on the tires is orig and not replicated . Yes the factory really did spray yellow crap on the the inside of the tires and wheels.

http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mump-1105-1969-ford-mustang-429-restoration/









Original build sheet location to the right.




Notice the number 4 on the firewall, the 2 on the top of the passenger shock tower, the X on the air cleaner seal, the 10 on the end of the coil and the white zip tie type item holding the starter cable to the shock tower brace.




Orig muffler with orig markings.

[Herman]

Like I said, Concours judging can bring up some interesting points & debates and everyone is entitled to their opinion on what is/isn't correct. I am happy to talk concours stuff and learn from others, I know more about 65 & 66's than anything else.  I am no expert and don't claim to be one.  I am going to have a good read of MCA rules which have been posted.

Interesting Charles Turner Head MCA Judge was out here a couple of years and stated we had mainly driver concours standard cars.  In Oz there is only a small percentage of the movement who are into Concours. 

Maybe we can ask Admin to start a Concours section for these types of decisions.

[barnett468]

Like I said, Concours judging can bring up some interesting points & debates and everyone is entitled to their opinion on what is/isn't correct. I am happy to talk concours stuff and learn from others, I know more about 65 & 66's than anything else.  I am no expert and don't claim to be one.  I am going to have a good read of MCA rules which have been posted.

Interesting Charles Turner Head MCA Judge was out here a couple of years and stated we had mainly driver concours standard cars.  In Oz there is only a small percentage of the movement who are into Concours. 

Maybe we can ask Admin to start a Concours section for these types of decisions.

Well again, oz obviously as much lower standards for their classes, therefore I don't now how much benefit a Concours section would be since it seems like they don't know what Concours really is in oz because again, if they did, that bronze car would not be in the Thoroughbred class.

By the way, the person that did the work on the black car I posted is one of the best Concours restorers in the world whom is also an MCA judge and one of the people other judges defer to when there is a question . He is also the only person to ever have a car get a perfect score in MCA judging in the US which was on his Yellow 1969 Boss 302.

Again, debating things like which coil decal is more correct is pointless since they never had a decal.

If you want to learn more about what would most likely be correct for any year Mustang, you should check put this site.

http://www.concoursmustang.com/

If you need any NOS parts I may have what you need or know where you can get it because I know virtually all of the biggest NOS parts collectors.

[jimyd]

Always the same smart ass answers and posts from barnett468.
" I have been doing this for 40 years " BS and and putting  everyone down. Jacking up your post count with usless garbage .
No one picked the shit out of that thing you were posting for sale on this forum. I guess that is the standard in your country.  Don't worry,  plenty of us have seen it first hand!
How about you pull your head in and have a bit of curiosity towards others.

[barnett468]

Always the same smart ass answers and posts from barnett468.
" I have been doing this for 40 years " BS and and putting  everyone down. Jacking up your post count with usless garbage .

WRONG, try and get your facts right . My post was directed at someone else whom always makes smart ass replies yet rarely if ever has anything factual to counter his claims.

Also, I have no idea what jacking up a post count means, nor do I care unless they give some type of prize like a free set of faux wood handled steak knives to people that have the most posts in a month. 


By the way, this was part of my initial answer to the question Herman asked me specifically about the car.

How about this color and standard of restoration, I believe it's a very rare car

http://mustang.org.au/2-uncategorised/26-mustang-nationals-2016.html

not enough photos to tell much but it certainly looks nice in the available photos.

[GEOFF289]

That gave me a laugh Geoff.

I had my 70 Mach 1 for sale at the Nationals in Qld a few years ago and while I was talking to an interested prospect, these two guys wearing denim jackets covered in Mustang badges wandered up and in loud voices started picking my car to pieces about wrong hose clamps and phillips screws and that it had been repainted in a poor copy of Indian Fire. I interrupted them and asked if they were interested in purchasing my car. When they said no, I told them in an equally loud voice to Fxxx Off!!

My Mach 1 was actually one of 268 painted Chestnut Metallic which was from the Thunderbird paint bin and offered towards the end of the 1970 Mustang model year.

Yeah, well you gotta laugh Pete. Sensational looking car!