260 Windsor Rebuild

[barnett468]

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oops . . i forgot to remind you . . do NOT use comp cam lifters...EVER . . buy cranes.
 

[Ford Compact 1963]

Hi guys engine builder said he will do some head work and no cam required he will get more HP from head work

[moe]

no cam required

Sounds like a rotary engine 

[Ford Compact 1963]

Sounds like a rotary engine 

What do you mean moe?

[moe]

Rotary engines don't use a cam shaft.  You mentioned that a cam was not required.

[Ford Compact 1963]

That's not what I meant I meant no after market

[moe]

I'd still look around for a cam, even an economy grind with a bit more low down torque.

From memory, the firing order changed during the evolution of the Windsor,  Just wondering what shaunp's and barnett468's view is of getting a different cam to allow for the firing order to be changed, at the same time, going for a bit more of an increase in torque off the line.

[shaunp]

My advice is to change the cam, it will need a new one anyway, a small torque cam such as the Extreme energy suggested is a good choice. I never fit a standard cam in an engine, cam design has come a long way in the last 50 odd years, you have to buy one anyway, so a small modern design with more area under the curve is the way to go.

[Ford Compact 1963]

Yes Shaun I agree builder doesn't. What is the exact one on that link and cost ?

[barnett468]

Yes Shaun I agree builder doesn't. What is the exact one on that link and cost ?

1. your builder sounds like he is WAY behind the times to me . . there is no such thing as a factory cam for these anymore that i know of . . even if there was, there is no logic in using a design that is 50 years old.

2. i already posted the cam i think you should use and shaun already agreed and i think either shaun or boofhead suggested nearly the same one at the beginning of your thread . . i also posted the links to where to buy it here at vpw in oz and they include the price and they will likely even knock a few dollars off if you snivel about the price . . i guess you didn't read my post . . i suggest you do because there is more pertinent info there.

3. you also didn't answer a single one of my questions so everybody has to guess what will work best.
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[Raven]

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oops . . i forgot to remind you . . do NOT use comp cam lifters...EVER . . buy cranes.

Can you elaborate on this a bit more. I have found on some other forums complaints about noisy hydraulic roller lifters. I assume that if the spring rates are correct and that the lifters have been installed to specs that the roller lifter should roll over the cam lobe and not tick. Could this be an oil issue?

[Ford Compact 1963]

I'm all for a cam. He isn't. Said he will reface my rocket arms and do new Pistons rings etc with head work for performance.

[Ford Compact 1963]

My advice is to change the cam, it will need a new one anyway, a small torque cam such as the Extreme energy suggested is a good choice. I never fit a standard cam in an engine, cam design has come a long way in the last 50 odd years, you have to buy one anyway, so a small modern design with more area under the curve is the way to go.

Even at 60 thou original miles Shaun?

[shaunp]

Even at 60 thou original miles Shaun?

They are just not worth reusing, cam and lifters every time, like timing chains, chuck them put new ones in. Unless he is going to do a whole heap of head work such as bigger valves etc, its the cam that will wake it up, its always the the cam that wakes them up. Sound to me like he is just chucking a set of rings in it to stop it smoking.

[barnett468]

I'm all for a cam. He isn't. Said he will reface my rocket arms and do new Pistons rings etc with head work for performance.

your engine has 60,000 miles on it and he is NOT going to bore it out . . i seriously doubt your bore is going to be good enough to do that . . it would be a miracle if it was . . i would have him show you how much out of round it is and how much taper it has but im going to bet you it is out by at least .0015 inches in both directions which is too much for an engine that you never ever want to rebuild again after all this effort and time.

i also seriously doubt that shaun or boofhead would do that either but you can ask them but i guarantee you that i certainly wouldnt.
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do it right the first time and you will only have to do it once.
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[barnett468]

Can you elaborate on this a bit more. I have found on some other forums complaints about noisy hydraulic roller lifters. I assume that if the spring rates are correct and that the lifters have been installed to specs that the roller lifter should roll over the cam lobe and not tick. Could this be an oil issue?

sure . . i am referring to the comp non roller lifters but it applies to their base model pos roller lifters also . . they are simply crap, crap, crap and are made in india . . im telling you this and i am a comp cam dealer, lol.

the cranes are [or used to be] the best non roller lifters on the planet for the money.

the ticking sound typically comes from poor internals.

the lifter game is a big shell game . . there are only 2 or 3 lifter mfgs in the us.
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[GLENN 70]

Are you joking ,the engine builder wants to do a port job on the heads ,then run a std cam , and not even  a rebore .  If its such a budget rebuild get the heads rebuilt .and they will cost enough without spending another $500 on them with a port job .  If the engine is stripped ask him what it needs from start to finish before you go any further . I would have taken it to Chris sms777 on here or big Al ,at least of one of the guys on this forum .

[barnett468]

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also, if he does bore it, you should only go .020" over because it will leave more material on the cylinder walls which will help with cooling plus it gives you two bores left in your engine instead of one and the .020" pistons are the same size as the others so there is no a single reason to go .030" over instead of .020".

here they are.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-s1106-020/overview/make/ford

[Ford Compact 1963]

Thanks to all involved here. I'm meeting with builder when engine is pulled down. Will insist on new cam ARP studs and felpro gaskets, carter fuel pump and new oil pump and airtex water pump

[barnett468]

Thanks to all involved here. I'm meeting with builder when engine is pulled down. Will insist on new cam ARP studs and felpro gaskets, carter fuel pump and new oil pump and airtex water pump

why dont you just buy these parts and hand them to him

if you are talking about arp bolts for the rods, you dont need them . . if you want to make them stronger, all you need is arp rod nits . . he will need to check the rod size after he torques them.

also, dont forget about the cylinder bore and the crane lifters etc..

it might be better if you just write down exactly what we suggest and hand it to him and tell him to do it . . as i mentioned before, i have built a zillion engines and on a simple project like this, i am ecstatic if the owner brings me a list and says this is what i want as long as they are not crap parts.

i never did understand this arrogant attitude some engine builders have . . its not f'n rocket science.

a bosch water pump is also fine.

the oil pump should be a standard mellings . . i would take it all apart to make sure its clean inside first.

[Ford Compact 1963]

if you are talking about arp bolts for the rods, you dont need them . . if you want to make them stronger, all you need is arp rod nits . . he will need to check the rod size after he torques them.

also, dont forget about the cylinder bore and the crane lifters etc..

it might be better if you just write down exactly what we suggest and hand it to him and tell him to do it . . as i mentioned before, i have built a zillion engines and on a simple project like this, i am ecstatic if the owner brings me a list and says this is what i want as long as they are not crap parts.

i never did understand this arrogant attitude some engine builders have . . its not f'n rocket science.

a bosch water pump is also fine.

List is being made as we speak your advice is appreciated 

[barnett468]

List is being made as we speak your advice is appreciated 

we are all just trying to help you and keep you from getting f'd because we all actually really do know what exactly what the f we're doing . . i built my first engine in 1974.

also, if you run premium gas like 95 octane or more, you absolutely, positively, need to use head gaskets that are thinner than stock if your pistons are below the block surface which they almost always are unless the block has been milled IF you want to get the most performance you can out of it . . unfortunately, the cost of these gaskets is around $130 aud each . . vpw has them as well as an ebay seller.

i had skev do the same thing and he is quite happy.

[griff]

FC63 have you parted with any money to 'the builder' ?
if he isnt a relative or very close friend ill say what others are alluding to.....
TAKE YOUR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE.
unfortunately you dont have the knowledge as yet to walk in and start convincing him of what has been put fwd on this forum, you may have the balls but theres a good chance youll only end up backing down and cursing yourself later. we actually do have your best interests at heart mate.

however, if he's already got your engine hit the fire alarm, load it into your boot and drive!! 
griff

[barnett468]

Yes Shaun I agree builder doesn't. What is the exact one on that link and cost ?

hey...if this guy is telling you to reuse your same 50 year old camshaft that has 60,000 kilos or miles on it, and you told him you wanted a new one then 'im sorry but he has to be the dumbest engine builders on the planet.

if he wants to reuse 60,000 mile worn pistons, on 60,000 mile worn bores with a 60,000 mile worn cam AND this genius said he can port your heads for you, he has been suckin back WAY too many cold tasty Fosters Lagers...Australia's favorite beer.

 . . 

[66 Stang]

Wow, Fosters Largers, isn't that the crap we send to the USA, i haven't seen that in years.