CAR POLISH

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Offline shaunp

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #425 on: January 20, 2013, 08:40:59 pm »
I've only just gone through this thred, Keen to give some of this a go. I've cut 100's & 100's of cars over the years, and given them back, won prizes for some as well. Never tried any of this stuff. In the 80's we use to cut show cars with MAX, then Tcut & corn flower, on wool that's all there was, I used to love corn flower on E &A type acrylic Lacquer, about the only 2k we had was Dulux Acran. If anyone can remember the Beauchamp Bros, Torana & silver mink HK GTS, from the Summer nats in the 80's thats how they were done as was Dave Johnson's Jigsaw FJ which was best wild custom back then at the Nats.  For 2k I've mostly used a couple of grades of Fercula and 3m perfectit. Cut them useing a Rupes single speed buff I've had for 20 + years, few setts of brushes in that time, and a heap of white, orange flat pads and Black waffle pads to finish. I'm doing an XY GT "Faker" now in Vintage Bugandy, might give it a go after I've rubbed and cut it. If it turns out ok I'll do the mustang as well when I paint it. The 67 is Lime Gold same as Rockets Grande can't wait to get color on it.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 08:44:11 pm by shaunp »

Offline rocket

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #426 on: January 20, 2013, 11:00:02 pm »
Hi ShaunP, Great to see that you are interested in this style of polishing. You would surely be the person with the most experience at buffing cars on this Thread.

In the 80s i was using a Hitachi polisher with a wool pad fitted and used a polishing compound called green frog. Could not afford to upgrade to the Tcut in those days. Polishing cars has come a long way since then - thankfully.

Will you still use your trusty old Rupes polisher or upgrade to a variable speed unit? There are quite a few options for machines now. The Rolls Royce of polishing machines is considered to be the Festool Shinex Rotary, followed by the Flex XC 3401 VRG forced rotation Orbital, then there is the Concours 900 from Waxit or the ZFE Polisher from China. Should also mention the new machine receiving rave reviews in the detailing world, which is the Rupes BigFoot polisher. For a person with your experience at buffing, probably anything less than a rotary would be too slow for you.

For pads i would suggest either Lake Country CCS pads or the Diamond faced pads from China.

There are a lot of polishes on the market now. My preference is still Menzerna - love the shine from Menzerna polishes, although the new Scholl polishes have been used very successfully by several people on this Thread.

The procedure for freshly painted cars would possibly be to compound 2 stages with the 3M Perfectit range, followed by Menzerna 2500 on an orange pad, then 4000 on a white pad and finish off with the refining polish - 4500 on a black pad. You will end up with an incredible shine.

The Vintage Burgundy you mention is a superb colour. We have a 67 coupe in Vintage Burgundy. I started a Menzerna polish on it a couple of years ago, but it had been put aside while we do other cars. Here it is -



From memory, i had buffed the bootlid just before the above photo was taken. Jeremy is finishing the reassembly at home in his spare time. Hope to have it on the road mid year.

I have been watching your 67 build. Can`t wait to see it finished. It will look fantastic in Lime Gold - especially after a Menzerna Polish.



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Offline BLU302

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #427 on: January 21, 2013, 09:39:41 am »
Hi Shaun,
When you're ready to polish give me a yell and I'll loan you my Concours 900 to try.
Cheers,
Bob

Offline shaunp

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #428 on: January 21, 2013, 10:05:03 am »
Hi Shaun,
When you're ready to polish give me a yell and I'll loan you my Concours 900 to try.
Cheers,
Bob

Thanks Bob, I'll take you up that in a few weeks, for the Falcon, I've actually got 3 buffs, a Rupes which very heavy, it kind of does the work for you and 2 x 2 speeds, Hitachi and a Ryobi. I'll cut it with 2 grades of Fercula, first cause I've got this, then try some Menzerna. The XY Faker is a seller I want it looking Killer, in the paint, Vintage Burgandy with a gold GT stripe. It's not a full resto, it was built in the late 90"s and the clear has delaminated. So it's just sand, skim up here and there and paint. Wasn't keen to do a metal strip, not sure what old repairs I would find.
Not keen to buy a new machine yet, wouldn't have the work for it, but I forsee a forced job change back to this work full time in the next couple of years. May buy some of the pads Rocket suggested for the rupes as well. If I'm going to be restoring cars full time I'll have to consider something like the Festool/new Rupes I suspect. You cant wear Rupes tool out, my I have a Buff, an orbi, and long sander, they done crap loads of work and treated very roughly, can't kill them. The Rupes won't be cheap though I supect. Shound have the falcon in hi build later this week. Have to put it on the hoist to pull some dents out of the RH sill, where someone has jacked it up.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 10:07:07 am by shaunp »

Offline BLU302

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #429 on: January 21, 2013, 10:59:46 am »
My parents live at Wakerly and I think I'll be going there soon. You're at Wynnum aren't you Shaun?
Used the Concours on the wife's Mini last week-end to remove some overspray she got when she parked in an industrial area - came up great.
Bob

Offline shaunp

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #430 on: January 21, 2013, 11:01:44 am »
Yep, but do the but paint shed set up is at Hemant.
heres the rupes bigfoot
http://www.carcareproducts.com.au/product/rupes/bigfoot_polisher_kit_lhr21e

Offline shaunp

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #431 on: January 21, 2013, 04:54:23 pm »
I notice the Rupes big foot does a 21mm orbit, while the others seem to 8mm or so.

Offline rocket

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #432 on: January 21, 2013, 05:19:01 pm »
Hi Shaunp, Yes... It is a large orbit. The Festool Rotex has a 6mm orbit, thn Flex from Germany went to an 8mm orbit on the Flex XC 3401 VRG and now Rupes has hit the market with the Bigfoot at 21mm.
Some detailers are raving about how quickly they can polish a car with the Bigfoot - probably due to the 21mm orbit, while other Detailers are lamenting the small 500watt motor. There are varying reviews on the Bigfoot. Here is a link to a Thread about it on Autopia -

http://www.autopia.org/forum/machine-polishing-sanding/142571-rupes-bigfoot-lhr-21e-heading-usa.html

It is a long Thread started by a polishing guru named kevin brown who is importing them to the USA. Obviously he wants to sell them and make a profit for himself.

Here are another couple of Links to an Aussie Detailing Forum -

http://www.detailparadise.com.au/showthread.php?8570-New-Professional-Polishers-from-Rupes

http://www.detailparadise.com.au/showthread.php?8172-Rupes-LHR-21E-Big-Foot-VS-Flex-XC-3401-VRG

The last Link is a Thread by Mario ( polishdoc ), who is a very accomplished detailer. Unfortunately some people think he is biased toward Flex products and the Thread may reflect that.

This is an example of where things can become a bit blurred on the internet when it comes to product reviews.

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Offline 69candy

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #433 on: January 21, 2013, 06:40:44 pm »
As my paint is only 2 years old, I figured on a 2 coat process for the first time would be the go. Out in the sticks I got some Repco eclipse polish, 2 stage job. Spent today doing the first stage. Used a combination of the white pads, on the dull spots, and black pad on the sides of the car. Boy, you notice the imperfections in the paint when you polish!!
Next is the 2nd stage, a wax. What do you recomend to apply it with, as in which pad?? or none at all. I have the Rocket kit!!!

Offline shaunp

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #434 on: January 21, 2013, 10:31:16 pm »
Thanks Rocket, I looked at the links, I think the Oz one is a waste of time, you can't compare a machine with different pads and compounds. I could get any of my machines and they will all cut better with Ferecula than Solar. I'm not sure I get why the random orbit is better than a rotary machine ? Is it because it's harder to burn the paint? or does it cut better. I'm kind of inclined to buy some flasher pads and some Menzerna for what I have. I'll give Bobs ago on the Falcon, though just to compare. So do you guys use the courser Menzerna to cut them first, or something else. I've got Plenty of Ferecula here to cut them, first up. I'll only be cutting 2000 scratches, and then you reckon the 2500, & 4000? is that the go,
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 10:42:46 pm by shaunp »

Offline rocket

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #435 on: January 21, 2013, 11:10:58 pm »
As my paint is only 2 years old, I figured on a 2 coat process for the first time would be the go. Out in the sticks I got some Repco eclipse polish, 2 stage job. Spent today doing the first stage. Used a combination of the white pads, on the dull spots, and black pad on the sides of the car. Boy, you notice the imperfections in the paint when you polish!!
Next is the 2nd stage, a wax. What do you recomend to apply it with, as in which pad?? or none at all. I have the Rocket kit!!!

Hi 69candy, Yes... You do notice any imperfections in the paint as you are polishing. Not sure about the Repco Eclipse Polish - never heard of it before. Did it bring up a nice shine? How did you go at handling the ZFE polisher?

Wax is normally applied by dabbing a small foam pad into the wax pot to pick up some wax, then spreading it across the panel by hand. Sealants are normally liquid and can be applied by machine.

If you are coming to town anytime soon, drop by and i will give you some scholl concepts polish to try out.

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Offline rocket

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #436 on: January 21, 2013, 11:33:46 pm »
Thanks Rocket, I looked at the links, I think the Oz one is a waste of time, you can't compare a machine with different pads and compounds. I could get any of my machines and they will all cut better with Ferecula than Solar. I'm not sure I get why the random orbit is better than a rotary machine ? Is it because it's harder to burn the paint? or does it cut better. I'm kind of inclined to buy some flasher pads and some Menzerna for what I have. I'll give Bobs ago on the Falcon, though just to compare. So do you guys use the courser Menzerna to cut them first, or something else. I've got Plenty of Ferecula here to cut them, first up. I'll only be cutting 2000 scratches, and then you reckon the 2500, & 4000? is that the go,

Hi shaunp, i agree that machine comparison was absolutely flawed. Do not know what he was thinking.

Very experienced car polishing people will always favour a rotary polisher because they know it is much quicker than an orbital and can most of them can finish down without leaving holograms and buffer trails in the paint.
The orbital machines are aimed more at the hobbiest who may not know how to handle a rotary polisher without damaging the paintwork. They are very easy to handle and because they do not generate anywhere near the heat of a rotary - it is very difficult to damage the paint. They do finish down very well and do not leave holograms or buffer trails. But it does take a lot longer to polish a car.
Up until the Rupes Bigfoot came along, the Flex XC 3401 VRG Forced rotation orbital was considered the best of the available orbital machines. In fact even today i prefer to use my Flex orbital and only use the rotary when i am pressed for time.

The process to achieve a show car shine on freshly painted cars would be to firstly use the compounds like Farecla or 3M as you normally do, then switch to the Menzerna starting with the 2500 then 4000 and finish off with 4500. So 3 extra stages - but well worth it for the finished product. If i was doing the job i would always use the Flex orbital for the final 2 stages, but i think you know how to finish down with the rotary without leaving holograms or buffer trails.

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Offline 69candy

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #437 on: January 22, 2013, 09:51:05 am »
 The polisher works great. Put it on 1 to spread polish then around 4/5 to actually polish. I will be ordering some brand name polish for the next time round. My bad. I should have said sealent not wax. It is a liqid. Blue pad?? Be good to do this?? I have noticed a few scratches that may need a more abrasive polish to get out

Offline rocket

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #438 on: January 22, 2013, 10:20:41 am »
Hi 69candy, The blue pad will be fine. Always use the softest pad for applying sealant.

Use speed no.1 to spread the sealant and try to spread it as thinly as possible.

Photos would be good.

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Offline 69candy

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #439 on: January 23, 2013, 06:49:15 am »
All done. I'll get some pics after work!!

Offline scedd1

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #440 on: January 23, 2013, 09:07:15 am »
Rocket,
you were asking for comment from the ZFE buyers so here goes.
Nice Machine, plenty of weight and seems solidly built to me.
BUT i havent got much done as its been a bit tropical up here and i had my granddaughters for 2 weeks and i had to do a bit of work as well, which was most inconvenient, then i lost the Hilux for 2 weeks getting the heads rebuilt.
So i started by washing the Hilux (being 2013 it was time for its annual bath) and noticed all the lantana scratches and what looked like grinder crap all down one side (that may have been me using a grinder nearby last easter :ouch:).
So i looked in your box and i found 600 grit discs (see where this is going!!).
Grabbed a bucket of water and off i went over every bit of rusty grit and scratch that i could find.
then another bath, then i clayed the whole thing, then another bath.
Then i touched up the deep scratches with the factory paint tin that came with it (Toyota poverty pack white).
Result is a clean truck with lots of dull sandy spots.
So i bought some 2000 wet and dry and rubbed like shit till the dull sany patches were just dull patches.
Out with my Menzerna 500 on Orange pads, dab on the door, start on 1, spread it then up to 3, back and forth, wax on wax off.
Got bored quickly so up to 7 for about 3 minutes.
Repeated till i had done the whole door, had the polish go black at one stage, so i stopped and cleaned it off then repeated the polishing.
Its a bit better, but i still see dull patches.
So my questions are -
How many times should i do it with 500 and orange before moving on to the next polish?
How fast should the sander be going?
How much pressure should i be using?
I now think white is the wrong colour to learn on as it doesnt give a very good reflection.
Thanks,
Steve
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Offline shaunp

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #441 on: January 23, 2013, 10:53:02 am »
Rubbing it with 600 was probably not a good idea, You may not have rubbed all the scratches out with the 2000. Soapy water is also the go, grinding slag will melt into the paint, dragging it out with paper will scratch it as well if you don't keep the paper well lubed and flushed clean. 1500-2000 scratches cut out easy enough but it will take more then 3 mins. Mostly scratches from brushing up againt stuff with a 4x4 will just cut out no need to rub most.
If youv'e rubbed this car be prepared to hang off the buff for a hours not minutes.

Offline shaunp

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #442 on: January 23, 2013, 11:00:55 am »
Also by the number 500, I'm guessing 500 Menerna is a course compound, you dont move on till the panel is cut, ie uniform gloss, the 2500, 4000 etc just polish the whole panel finer and fine. The spots you have sanded need to be totally blended first. If you cant cut it wit 500, 2500 aint going to fix it.

Offline scedd1

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #443 on: January 23, 2013, 11:55:04 am »
Also by the number 500, I'm guessing 500 Menerna is a course compound, you dont move on till the panel is cut, ie uniform gloss, the 2500, 4000 etc just polish the whole panel finer and fine. The spots you have sanded need to be totally blended first. If you cant cut it wit 500, 2500 aint going to fix it.
Thanks Shaun.
Yes the 500 is the coarsest Menzerna. i also have medium 2500 and fine 4000 as well as cutting compound paste.
So i should buff for ? minutes, then wipe down with detailer, have a look, reload the buffer with more 500 and do it again and again and again......
The bit i wasnt sure of was how long do i polish before i add more 500?
Steve
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Offline shaunp

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #444 on: January 23, 2013, 12:35:05 pm »
I've never used Menzerna, going to give it a go next one  but only the 2500 & up. The course Farecula, is about as quicker cutting compound you'll get. But basically you just keep cutting, you will know when the compound is gone, I give it a mist of water from time to time, helps cut it finer as the compound dies off. The way good compound works, is the gritt gets smaller as you use it so it does loose power as you go. You don't want a lot or you just clog the pad, you need to keep the pad free. I can't really say how many minutes, I just cut till I'm happy and add compound as i see fit, spit on it , mist a bit of water from a spray bottle etc. I hold a bog applicator on the pad if it loads up. I've never used and orbit buff, only heavy rotary types, not really sure how hard you can drive them. I lay into them, and as you polish end up with no pressure toward the finish, you'll just have to get a feel for it.

Offline rocket

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #445 on: January 23, 2013, 01:48:44 pm »
Hi Scedd1, That 600 grit paper is way too coarse for polishing. It was included in the kit and so i sent it out with them. I would use it for sanding wood or metal, but certainly not paint. Can i suggest everybody just put it in with your general sandpapers and do not use it on your cars.

Here are some general guides of wetrubbing sandpaper used in paint and panel.

240grit - for paint removal and repairwork.

400grit - for smoothing repairs prior to undercoating

600 grit - for wetrubbing paint prior to undercoating

800grit - for wetrubbing undercoat prior to painting top coats

1200grit - for speedy wetrubbing prior to compounding

1500grit - preferred grit for quality wetrubbing prior to compounding

2000grit - for fine wetrubbing after using 1500 for high quality finish and also to remove fine scratches.

So you will see that by using 600grit on the paint it has introduced some deep scratching. Question is - how to fix it.

Here is a Menzerna chart - Courtesy of Zas.com.au detailers supplies in sydney



FG500 is a fairly aggressive polish which has a fairly long work time. So, using the products you already have - select the firmest polishing pad you have. Put 4 pea sized dobs of polish on the pad, dab it on a 400mmm x 400mmm section and polish just that area on speed no.5 for approximately 5 minutes or until the polish has dried and gone powdery, but do not go beyond 5 minutes. Wipe the area clean with some quick detailer and a microfibre, then inspect it. Does it have an even shine? If so , go to next area. If not go over the same area again.

Can i suggest you just do one panel at a time - say the front guard (either side) and let us know how it goes.

When you are buffing, go slowly in a crosshatch pattern, overlapping about 50%. As a general guide you should go over the area about 6 times in the 5 minutes.

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Offline shaunp

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #446 on: January 23, 2013, 03:26:48 pm »
Depends how much paint is left as to if you can cut it out, You may have to re sand it with something heavier than 2000. 1500 with soapy water, to get the deap marks out, depends how hard you sanded it with 600 really and how scratched it is. You won't cut 600 marks out, you have to get rid of them with 1500, then cut that out.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 03:28:33 pm by shaunp »

Offline 69candy

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #447 on: January 23, 2013, 08:51:31 pm »
For a bloke who knows as much about polishing, as he does about being a #### star, SFA  I'm pretty happy with the results. There are a few areas that need a little luv, as in a few slight scratches that will need a more of a cut to get out. I will go see my painter about them and see what he says's as well as a few other questions





Offline rocket

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #448 on: January 23, 2013, 09:39:37 pm »
Wow! That is looking very nice!

Top Job :thumb:

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Offline Dark Horse

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Re: CAR POLISH
« Reply #449 on: January 30, 2013, 11:57:46 pm »
It must be nice to have good paint  :cry:

I've been browsing this thread for a while now trying to learn what I can. Love my car to bits, but the paint...well...needs some help...??? (Warning : some people may find the following photos distressing) :thud:





I've washed & clayed just prior to these photos. Is there any point polishing or am I wasting my time & money? Otherwise, what should I use? Someone had already 'given it a go' & left me with holograms all over the boot lid (clay seems to have helped with that already though). The photos I've posted are of the boot lid only, which is by far the worst paint on the car, but the rest of the car is fairly hazy/cloudy like the patches you can see in these photos. Hey, I'm not looking at winning any shows, it's a daily drive type of car & that's how I like it, but if I can do something to improve what I have then I'll do my best. I'm just concerned that if I were to give it a polish I really don't know how thin the paint is by now. Your thoughts/opinions would be greatly appreciated  :thumb: